Would YOU Fight for America?

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Would YOU Fight for America?
by Anonymous Observer
20-Dec-2010
 

The writings below were inspired by this blog from Fesenjoon. 

 

The United States Oath of Allegiance (that’s the oath that all you naturalized U.S. citizens took to become citizens) states:

 "I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the armed forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."

I’m sure you all remember the day you took this oath.  For most non-Iranian people who become U.S. citizens, that day is a joyous, happy day.  For some—not all—Iranians, it’s a day where they can brag about their “zerangi” and prepare to file petitions to bring the rest of their family over to the U.S.  Nothing wrong with--except for the fact that now that you have put your John Hancock (or, if you prefer, Abdullah Islaminejad) on that form, you are legally obligated to do certain things.  One of those pesky little things is the obligation to bear arms on behalf of the U.S.  This means that in case there is a war and a draft, you will have to put down the chelo kabob dish, say goodbye to the summer vacation and cheap opium parties (and more chelo kabob) in Iran, get out of your leased Mercedes and mosey on to the nearest recruitment center and be shipped to whatever area of the world the U.S. government thinks is appropriate for you to be--and fight for your new country.  That’s right.  You’re now an American.  And it’s not “golabi” or “velesh kon baba, ki halesho dareh” type thing.  You’re in it for the long haul. 

Now let’s say that IR and its supporters’ wishful thinking actually comes true and the U.S. gets engaged in a war with Iran.  See, in a democratic system like the U.S., there is a debate process about this sort of thing.  But once the debate is over, and the decision is made to go to war, you can’t argue and “safsateh” about it any longer.  The time for debate is over.  Your representatives in the government have voted.  It’s time to put the gear on and suit up--and shut up.  What would you do if and when the time comes? Hide in Canada?  Are all of you all of a sudden going to become “conscientious objectors?”  Hey, Japanese Americans had to fight in WWII-some of them while their family members were interned in internment camps.  Sen. Daniel Inouye had to do it.  His parents were Japanese immigrants.  He volunteered at Pearl Harbor and then fought the Japanese and was heavily wounded, receiving the Medal of Honor. Many German Americans fought in WWII.   John Abizaid is Arab American.  He was Centcom’s commander during the war in Iraq. 

The scenario is one that actually happened in Iran as well.  During the Iran / Iraq war, we knew a family who was Iranian / Iraq.  The wife was Iraqi and her husband was Arab Iranian who also had relatives in Iraq.  Their son fought for Iran, knowing that most of his family was Iraqi.  There were many other examples like that. 

But let’s say that you’re too old to fight.  Or that you’re openly gay (hey, they haven’t repealed “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” yet) or you have some kind of a medical issue that prevents you from becoming a soldier.  The other part of your oath says that you “will perform noncombatant service in the armed forces of the United States when required by the law; that [you] will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law …”  That could mean spying you know.  It could also mean translation service for U.S troops, making shells for tanks, etc.  How are you going to get out of those things?  Remember, no one has forced you to be a U.S. citizen.  I assume that you all had green cards before you become citizens, which didn’t place the obligations of citizenship on you.  Why did you take on this legal obligation?  So you could stay in Iran for more than six months and not have to worry about it?  So that you could bring your cousin here?  Too bad.  Whatever your reason was, that whole citizenship thing comes with a lot of baggage.  So, here’s what I propose to you fake U.S. citizens: give it up.  I mean your citizenship.  It’s not too late.  It can still be done.  In fact, I have taken the liberty of preparing the following form letter that you all could use: 

To:       U.S. Dept. of Homeland Security

            U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Service

            (insert your local office address)

Dear Sir / Madam, 

            My name is (Hassn Hossein / Fatemeh Soghra) Iranipour.  My alien number is (insert your immigration number).  I filed an application for citizenship on (date).  On (date) I appeared at your office and took the citizenship oath.  But now I realize that I no longer want to be a U.S. citizen.  This is because I am (insert one or more of the following as they apply to you: an America hater; an IR lover; a coward; I don’t consider the U.S. to be my country; I am a “cause head” and hating the U.S. is my main cause; I am a leftover Iranian Marxist; I love Hassan Nasrollah; I love Ayatollah Khamenei; I love Osama Bin Laden and believe that he is a freedom fighter).   I am also a liar because I did not tell you about any of this when I took my citizenship oath.  But never mind that.  In our culture we do these things.  We think we are clever.  But, where was I?  Oh, yes, can I get my green card back please?  Attached are my American passport and my certificate of citizenship.  I am returning it to you…and no, I have not reported it lost and gotten a new one.

PS- how log can I stay out of the country in Iran now that I only have a green card?  I have 4 pieces of land and six houses there that I need to rent / repair / sell.

Sincerely yours;

(Hassn Hossein / Fatemeh Soghra) Iranipour

See how easy that was?  Now, for once in your lives, print the letter and send it to your local immigration office.  Consider it a charity work for the new year, the charity being our honesty toward a nation that took you in and embraced you when your homeland was giving you the middle finger. 

Blog photo courtesy of Fesenjoon.  

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more from Anonymous Observer
 
Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

AO

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

 

I see your issues as very different from Fesenjoon. So I will just talk about yours.

I am all for integration. I married an American woman; speak perfectly fine English; and have plenty of American friends. I vote almost every election even minor ones. I know more about US history and government than most American born. I go out of my way to buy America so to keep the jobs here even if I have to pay more. So I don't think we have an argument there. 

Plus I have no issue with if someone wants to join the military. Just do not see it as a requirement for integration. Military has been voluntary for decades. In fact who was the last president who actually served? I think it was Bush senior.  But I am not anti Military. As I said before I donate to veterans causes; I lobbty for increased benefit and  so on. You do not need to enlist to support the veterans. It is very important to have a new GI bil; healt benefits for war wounded and the like.

My main beef is with the negative portrayal of Iranian Americans. I find it unfair; wrong and hateful. That is really what bugs me not whether someone wants to enlist or not.

That is what I meant by "hate fest". I oppose bad hate against Iranians as much as any other racism. I will be arguing that Iranians are good people. I hope that we will be on the same side.

VPK


Anonymous Observer

VPK

by Anonymous Observer on

You cannot enlist as an interpreter.  To become an interpreter for the U.S. military, you will have to work through a private contractor.  An Iraqi friend of mine tried to do that, although he did  not pass the security clearance for some reason.  The pay is actually pretty decent and it's tax free-as far as I know.  But it's not the type of thing that I'm interested in.  Plus, I have moved on since 2004.  Too many family and work obligations.  Again, the point of this blog is a draft type situation.  It says so right in the blog, and in the comments. 


Anonymous Observer

No VPK - more power to you

by Anonymous Observer on

You are free to lobby for whatever you want.  There's nothing wrong with an immigrant group lobbying its interest with the U.S. government.  In fact, that is why I wholeheartedly supported Fesenjoon's blog.  It's nice for us to talk about having power.  IT's a totally different thing to actually have it.

Political power, however, does not come with isolation.  It comes with full integration into ALL aspects of society, ESPECIALLY military service.  Even many--not all--American born politicians who have an eye on public service make a point of enlisting.  John Kerry is an example that comes to mind.  If we want full integration into the American society, we have to take the good with the bad.  We can't pick and choose.  That's why I advocate military service for Iranian citizens on voluntary basis.  It gives us more integration and more political power. 


Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

AO

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

 

If you are really wanting to serve ask to become an interpreter. US needs people fluent in Persian. I know at least one guy that does that. Pay is not great and you have to pass lots of security background checks.

But your physical health is not much of an issue. It is not going to require anytning physically demanding.


Anonymous Observer

updated vote count

by Anonymous Observer on

3 no's - 2 yes.


Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

AO

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

The U.S. is not perfect.  It makes
mistakes, sometimes catastrophic ones, like getting rid of Shah.  But
in my opinion, in its totality, the people, the system of governance,
judicial system and military, it's the best we have around.

That is not my point. As citizens it is our duty to help let them know when they make mistakes. You had asked why should USA want what is good for Iran. I say because it is also good for USA. You said what if they don't agree. I said then they are making a mistake. We should enlighten them. Again all legal and above board. Using lobby groups and voting power ss many others do. Is there anytning you disagree with?


Anonymous Observer

Fesenjoon - Bro

by Anonymous Observer on

I expect nothing else from a man of principle such as yourself.  My personal opinion is that we all took the oath, and good or bad, we have to live with our obligations under the oath.  

Some may disagree with us, and they are entitled to do so.  But what you and I believe in is what every immigrant group in this country has gone through.  

As I've said before, I have been determined not fit for voluntary active duty.  But the premise of this blog is a draft type situation.  I'm sure that in that unfortunate eventuality, I will not be spared either.  I'm sure they'll find something for me to do.  Again, the way I personally look at it, I made a knowing and voluntary decision, as an adult, when I took the oath.  As such, I have to live with its consequences.  

It's kind of like getting a loan.  You don't get the money and when it comes time to repay it say that you don't like the terms.  You knew what you were doing when you signed it.  Now live up to the obligation, even if you don't like it.

PS- for all their hype, insults, name callings, "naneh man ghareebam', etc., IR supporters are the biggest warmongers on the face of this planet.  They have been taunting the U.S. and itching for an apocalyptic confrontation with the U.S. for the past 31 years.  And anyone who doesn't believe me should read their main agent, Niloufar Parsi's  blogs on this site. 

 


Anonymous Observer

VPK

by Anonymous Observer on

The U.S. is not perfect.  It makes mistakes, sometimes catastrophic ones, like getting rid of Shah.  But in my opinion, in its totality, the people, the system of governance, judicial system and military, it's the best we have around.


Paykar

Bijan

by Paykar on

First, let me thank you for actually stating your opinion without insulting others. I do not share the opinion that one is morally obligated to follow the rule of the majority in a democratic political system, in matters of war and death... majority opinion does not mean a high ethical requirement has been reached. How would one solve a dilemma if the public favored slavery?

When it comes to Iran, if a war was waged, I think we both agree that the public has the appetide for such an invasion. Is it fair to say the ethical burden of support for such a war has been met solely based on public support, given that the Congress has been approving not declaring the wars presidents have waged for decades?

You maintain that you have severed your geographical ties after becoming a citizen, but you value your upbringing and culture and you have not abandoned them. The culture and values you hold dear do not exist in a vacuum, they are manifested and maintained primarily by the people who live in that geography.

This issue is not as clear cut as one might think.

 

Happy holidays.

 

 

 

 


Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

AO

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

AT THE TIME, for many reasons, the U.S.
THOUGHT that getting rid of the Shah was in their interest.  It obviously was not, but they THOUGHT it was. 

You see USA often makes bad calls that come back to haunt them. It is to our benefit to point those out. As a community we must help guid the USA to pick the right choice.

That was why I wrote my blog on Iranian territorial integrity. USA is toying with Jundallah and other radicals. We need to build influence and push them away from such groups. We specially should move them away from MKO. Otherwise USA will make yet another bad mistake that will hurt both Iran and USA. I hate to see another Taliban like gang pop up thanks to another mistake. It is our duty as American citizens to help them make the right decision.

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

 


Fesenjoon

AO - my vote

by Fesenjoon on

Now that youre actually counting votes, my answer is yes. I'm a man of my word. My oath of allegiance wasnt fake.

Contrary to many self centered egotists here, my world doesnt revolve around Iran, but all of humanity. I dont see the world thru the eyeglasses of tribalistic nationalism.

You can be in the US armed forces, and serve humanity. I see it all the time: (1) , (2) , (3) , (4) , (5) , (6) , ...

People who think the US Armed Forces are never up to any good have basically bought in to Khomeinist anti-western propaganda. And btw, speaking of the devil, this was an excellent mizegerd. 


maziar 58

A O KHAN

by maziar 58 on

I saw you were counting the votes only; sorry here is mine regarding your Q:

NO.

getting rid of IRR ?

YES.

Maziar


Shazde Asdola Mirza

Only for the Queen

by Shazde Asdola Mirza on


marhoum Kharmagas

"rafigh" Roozibeh!

by marhoum Kharmagas on

Roozibeh, ...... off! None of my exchanges were with you. When fascist ex marxists like you control this site you can ban me!


Roozbeh_Gilani

marhoom jan

by Roozbeh_Gilani on

Baba, to chera inghadr zer mizani? Yek zareh khafe sho ma bebinim baghieh chi migan.

Now imshi :)

"Personal business must yield to collective interest."


marhoum Kharmagas

Another worthless comment from me (to AO)!

by marhoum Kharmagas on

"so that I do not come across as a hypocrite and a liar."

But you DO COME across as a hypocrite!

Anyhow back to the topic, I question you calling others hypocrite and coward because they disagree with you about going to war . Because you yourself have an excuse for not going to war. AS YOU SAID:

"I even tried to enlist in the U.S. Navy a few years back, but was turned down because of a congenital heart defect"

BTW, I'll be PERFECTLY fine if you ignore my worthless and bimazzeh comments!   hehehhehehehe heheh hehheh :) :)

 

 


Anonymous Observer

VPK _ I agree with you on the Carter issue, but

by Anonymous Observer on

AT THE TIME, for many reasons, the U.S. THOUGHT that getting rid of the Shah was in their interest.  It obviously was not, but they THOUGHT it was.  


Anonymous Observer

Neither does insulting people

by Anonymous Observer on

I susually don't respond to you Magas, because I find you to be just another garden variety regime supporter. Plus, your comments are always idiotic and bi-mazzeh...so they're boring as well.  But I'll make an exception this time.

Nonetheless, what should I have said?  Hide the fact and lie and say "I'm ready to go to war?"  Or that "I served?"  I was honest about my situation, and made a point of being such so that I do not come across as a hypocrite and a liar.  

Are you really that dumb that you can't realize this, or are you just trying to pick a fight and make idiotic comments? 

BTW, you don't need to keep putting that link on.  I said the same thing in a comment on this thread.  So, you have made no great discovery and "gotcha", you moron.  Just look through the comments.  I said the same thing on this thread and gave even more details, including the date, you imbecile.   

 


marhoum Kharmagas

making noise does not help you

by marhoum Kharmagas on

You call those who disagree with you about going to war cowards and hypocrits while you can't go to war!!!!! AS YOU SAID:

"I even tried to enlist in the U.S. Navy a few years back, but was turned down because of a congenital heart defect"

YOU SAID IT right here:

//iranian.com/main/blog/fesenjoon/i-am-irania...

Please feel free to insult me, but my question is %100 related to your topic. 


Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

AO

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

 

I have always said that nations act based on their own self interest. The Shah was in fact right; it was in USA interest to support him. The problem was that Carter failed to understand this. If Carter had supported Shah there would have been no hostages. Therefore Carter would have had a much better chance of reelection. Plus Saddam would have not attacked Kuwait hence no need for USA troops.

In addition with Shah running Iran US would not need to send troops to Afghanistan. Iran would have been able to manage it for them. For years America depended on a friendly Iran to keep order in the region. Carter ruined that. My argument is that it is better for USA to go back to that model.

My arguments for territorial integrity are given in my blog. They show why it is in the interest of USA to have a unified Iran. There are many other reasons that I could and will give. I am going to write a whole list of them and post in my blog:

//iranian.com/main/blog/veiled-prophet-kh...

I am not naive and do not expect something for nothing. I genuinely believe that USA will do better with a united Iran run by RP. Or run by another sane government. I do no think Iranian people want the IR approach. So when I argue for a unified Iran I am keeping my oath to both nations. That makes it an easy choice!

I do not share the negative point of view some people have.


Anonymous Observer

VPK

by Anonymous Observer on

On the issue of "revolving around", what I meant was that in order for us to understand what other nations do the things that they do--which effect Iran--we should not look at them from an Iran-centric point of view.  We (all of us-not just you) have a tendency to demand that other nations make policy decisions and act in a way that is in the best interest of Iran and its people.  But that's not how things work.  And maintaining that point of view and that paradigm only works to undermine our ability to make proper long term decisions.  It also causes us to be caught off guard when other nations act in a way that harms us.

One need go no further than the 1979 devolution.  Shah's mistake was that at the time he thought--like many of us do and have done--that the U.S. was going to do what was right for Iran, and; therefore, the U.S. would never abandon him.  Well, we all know what happened there.  as soon as he showed a bit of independence, they got rid of him and installed Khomeini--because at the time Khomeini being in Iran was in their best interest...people of Iran be damned.  

And as far as the whole coward thing, as I have said many times, that is just my opinion.  Perhaps I'm wrong.  But it's an opinion.  Having an opinion is not an insult to anyone.   


Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

AO

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

 

Fine, I will take you as your word. So once again I repeat my positions:

Regarding Taxes: I will pay my share of taxes without hesitation. To me Tax are a much milder demand. They fall below my tolerance line.

Regarding War: I will go to war based on my own judgment. The war must be just based on my own reasoning. According to Nuremberg trial soldiers are personally responsible for orders they get. Therefore I am responsible whether I like it or not. So I have no choice but to apply my own judgment to ensure the war is just. 

Regarding mistreatment. I found two of your comments going too far:

  1. Saying that conscientious objectors are cowards. I have a great deal of respect for some of them. In fact I had said I would take that course myself for an unjust war.
  2. I got the impression that you were looking down at those whose world "revolves" around Iran. Well I am one of those people. I did not appreciate having what I call "Mihan Parast" called narcissist.

Hope I have been clear as to both position on taxes. And on what gave me offense.


Anonymous Observer

Bijan Jaan - Thank you for your response.

by Anonymous Observer on

no pollution at all. You are the third person, out of a 177 comments, who actually gave a yes or no answer. So far, we have two "no"s (Arayana and Abarmard) and one yes.    


Bijan A M

An Isolated response

by Bijan A M on

Before I start let me thank you AO for speaking and posing a question that has always been on my mind but never had the guts to pose it. Let me first give a direct response to your question before I get into “why”. Unfortunately, I’m old enough that I will not be drafted. However, if I was capable or qualified to be drafted, I would not hesitate even one second to enlist. This is not to say I support every US foreign policy (or for that matter domestic policy). I am as critical of so many US policies as the next communist on the block. However, when I took the oath of citizenship, I was truthful to my words. I had no idea about the petition process or all of the beautiful details that shows how genuine this democracy is.

 

To me, accepting the oath meant that USA is my new homeland. I voluntarily accepted that and severed my ties to the piece of geographic land called Iran. It by no means meant that I have given up on my upbringing or my traditions or cultures as an Iranian. I still practice every tradition practiced in Iran, be it cultural, spiritual, or whatever….This is the beauty of the democracy I subscribed to. This democracy does not prevent me from giving my life to defend democracy for the people of Iran or any other corner of the planet. I realize that many will call me naïve or neocon, etc…but I don’t care, I say what I feel and think. I oppose initiating any war anywhere, but if my new country through its democratic process determined a war is to the best interest of the nation, I’ll support it in a heartbeat, in spite of my passionate opposition. This is the meaning of democracy and the oath I took voluntarily.

The jest of my post is that: “when you take the oath of allegiance to a new country, you have morally broken your ties with your old homeland. Your nationality has changed but your cultural heritage will never change”.

 

Sorry if I polluted your blog.

 

Regards,

 Bijan


Anonymous Observer

I don't believe in kings, VPK aziz

by Anonymous Observer on

I believe in secular republics.  The whole point of the blog is a simple question.  And it's all about YOU (not you personally, but readers of the blog).  You have chosen to participate in the debate.  You cannot "ghahr" if you don't like what you hear.  I mean, Christ, look at what I have been called so far on this blog.  I'm still here.  So, stick around please.  I, along with all others, value your opinion, thoughts and input.  I know I do.  :-)) 

PS- VPK jaan, please show me where on this blog I have "mistreated" you. 


Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

AO

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

 

First  of all AO: don't give me orders; I don't work for you. This is the last direct reply you get from me. You are acting as if you are the king here. But guess what: you ain't no king. 

I do not deal with people who mistreat people who oppose them. I act according to accepted practice and law of America and my own judgment. I have no need for you.

Regarding Taxes:

  • Paying taxes is a legal requirement.
  • To me it is not the same as going there and shooting someone. There are people who refuse to pay taxes by the way. So the practice is done. I just happen to feel there is a difference.
  • My decisions are based on my judgment not yours. So if you don't like my reasoning that makes no difference to me.

Regarding Serving:

  • Serving is not legally required at this time.
  • Being a conscientious objector is legally recognized.Yes, I know you think they are cowards. But I don't really care.
  • Furthermore killing someone without a very good reason is against my beliefs. No oath is going to get me to murder someone. I will go to jail before I murder. 

Anonymous Observer

Still- No safsateh please - stick to the subject

by Anonymous Observer on

The question is whether you will stop paying taxes because a good chunk of it is spent on defense and wars.  Can you do so?  If not, how is that different from your duty to serve?


Anonymous Observer

And your citizenship oath is not a contract?!!!

by Anonymous Observer on

You are wrong and simple minded about your budget breakdown.  The 23% does NOT include the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.  It also does not include various "other defense related expenditure" such as...get ready....nuclear weapons research, which falls under the Dept. of Energy.  Here's a quote from Wikipedia about what that defense budget doesn't include:

 "This does not include many military-related items that are outside of the Defense Department budget, such as nuclear weapons research, maintenance, cleanup, and production, which is in the Department of Energy budget, Veterans Affairs, the Treasury Department's payments in pensions to military retirees and widows and their families, interest on debt incurred in past wars, or State Department financing of foreign arms sales and militarily-related development assistance. Neither does it include defense spending that is not military in nature, such as the Department of Homeland Security, counter-terrorism spending by the FBI, and intelligence-gathering spending by NASA."

 //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_States

So, perhaps you should do more than two minutes of research on the matter. :-)) 

Also, VPK jaan, how come you have become the point person to answer questions directed to others on this thread?  I'm sure people can speak for themselves.  Or have they given you a power of attorney? 


Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

Taxes

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

 

Our taxes are a part of the social contract we make.Tax is used to pay for all kinds of things. If you do not like it you lobby against that particular cause. That is what pro life people did. They did not want their tax used for abortions. They paid their taxes anyway but lobbied against use for abortions.

That is what a good citizen does to change policy. Going to war is a more personal matter and we may chose not to go. 

By the way 50% does not go for wars. The whole military budget is 23%. Most of which goes to pay for non-war related things. Plus vast majority of taxes go to pay for entitlements. Please research your facts before making statements. That way you do not come across as not knowing what you are talking about.

Here is a breakdown:

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._Federal_Spe...

It took me 2 minutes to get this. It is not hard to get facts.

VPK

 


Anonymous Observer

Hamsadeh jaan

by Anonymous Observer on

I read both of your comments several times each, and I cannot see a point where I disagree with you!  All of your points are quite valid, both in the interpretation of the law, and the people's right to be conscientious objectors ("CO").  What I was saying on the CO issue was simply my opinion.  I just don't think that it's a fair approach in case of a draft, because if that time comes, I am suer that a good chunk of the draftees will oppose the war, just as the case was in Vietnam--which is the most recent example of the draft.  But even at that time, the vast majority of the draftees who disagreed with the war went on to serve.  So, in my opinion, if those people served, and died, everyone else should have done so as well.  But that's just my opinion.  People are obviously free to have a different view on the subject.

And as far VPK, I still love him, even though he's wearing a hejab in his avatar and I'm all for "kashf-e-hejab."  Not picking a fight with him at all, even though he has "given up" on me. :-))