Current Events

The Destruction of the West

Veiled Prophet of Khorasan, I completely disagree with your lackadaisical attitude towards the West's decline.

The West's people - white people - were in their ascendancy only half a century ago. They were making forays into outer space, and were at the cutting edge of scientific and technological achievement.

Then came the 60s, and all that was destroyed. Drugs and frivolous sex destroyed whole communties, and we have today a whole generation of Westerners who do not even have proper parenting as a result, because they were raised in single parent homes.

Its children are burdened with white guilt, and told "don't be like those who came before you; they were evil". 

As a result, they lost their collective identity - and do not now identify with their own civilization's greatest heroes. 

They often seek satisfaction in other people's identities and cultures, becauses they are denied the right to do it with their own. 

The Leftists helped bring this about by advancing white guilt and political correctness. Multiculturalism has brought the death knell of the West even closer.

In other words, this is the work of people who either hated whites, or wanted to see them dispossesed and to see them give up political power over their own civilization.

What do you think would happen to Iran if Iranians imported millions and millions of non-Iranians and willingly gave up political power there as an ethnic group because they were afraid of being called "racist" if they refused to do it?

What would happen if schools in Iran taught that every Iranian conqueror was a mass-murder and that Iranians everywhere should be apologetic for having benefitted from that? 

Iran would go the same direction the West is going. It would be turned into a self-hating melting pot that would decline and not preserve its own identity.

It would be overrun with people who simply want to benefit from it, and who have no feelings or love for it or its founding people, and who have a lackadaisical attitude towards its destruction (e.g. saying "just a matter of normal cycles") - just like yourself.

Meanwhile, as far as I can see, you're not in favor of multiculturalism for Iran. You despise Iranians who seek too much for something of value in other cultures (like the West), and who abandon their own kind in their quest to bedeck themselves with other people's identities.

Advancement

Happens as a sort of "pot luck" deal. Nations and people chip in their bit. The Ancient Greeks came up with some philosophy and ideas of democracy. Persians under Cyrus the Great with ideas of human rights; roads; postal service.

Then during the early Islamic ear Iranians like Khwarizmi came up with Algebra. Later on French mathematicians took it further to very advanced calculus. Next people from Jewish to Italian to German came up with Quantum Mechanics. A Scotsman named Maxwell described electromagnetism. Right now an Iranian Firoz Naderi is the director of American Mars Mission. As nations go up and down leadership changes hands. A region falls back or takes the lead. 

Thanks to not having a world government we have variety. When one area is stagnating like Europe in the dark ages; East was shining. A few decades ago China was going backwards in a hurry. Now they are going forward quick. It keeps changing hands and is perfectly normal. You just need to understand that there is nothing superior about anyone. It is just a matter of normal cycles. Nations advance; peak; collapse and then reboot. 

Dear VPK, I know that you know,

Just please make sure that soosan khanoom and my dearest Arj know too :)

I have to run off soon to work on some "military stuff" to be used by our next generation "cyber debaters". I do it only to pay the mortgage and keep up with the kids constant demnds for the latest 50 inch, WiFi. BT, Cellular, WiMax enabled TV ! 

"Personal business must yield to collective interest."

Re facts!

Dear RG, sit back and read back what you've written below! For someone who values fact cehking, you have too many errors in your little comment below prior to your prompt leap at conclusions. No one talked about "becoming #1 in science olympia" (which I believe you meant olympiad)! What I said was that "Iran is among the top ten along with India, China..." Not that it matters, but since you insist on getting facts checked, you should do so before paraphrasing others! Moreover, I believe the conclusion you drew from those comments are as flawed as your interpretations!

However, the main emphasis of my commnets below was on the trajectory of Eastern nantions' (which include Iran's) ascension in the fields of science and technology vis a vis that of the Western nations for the next 39 years. What these countries' political situations are (or will be in 4 decades) or the conditions of human rights and democratic process was not an issue of debate! If you wish to create an issue out of it, that's a different story. But I assure you that you are wasting your time, for it has nothing to do with condoning IRI's political policies or any other country's on that list, namely China!

I despise IRI and everything about it, but never let my hatred of IRI interfere with my love for Iran and its people! This indeed is a rather cultural issue than political, and due to the Eastern societies' values and traditional respect for knowledge and education all the way from the family level to that of general society! This has nothing to do with state politics, and in the case of Iran it's in spite of the regime's policies. As a matter of fact, our students who are our assets of future, whether or not IRI would be a part of that future, have taken great strides in the fields of science and technology in the face of IRI's harrassments and intrusions. My bet is that IRI will not be around till the mid century, I don't know what yours is!

P.S. I can't believe you praise Reagan for development of internet via military spendings. Technological advances would occur with or without military projects and wars (actually they thrive in peace time). But one should wonder at what price was Regan's military industriaal complex growth possible! Indeed the current global financial crisis and America's basket case economy were rooted in Regan's mismanagements! It's good to step back form the edge of the roof, but be careful not to fall off the other side!

Iranians Are Allowed To Advocate For Themselves; Whites Aren't

All this talk about white greed being the undoing of the West misses one thing:

Whites USED to have a collective identity, and they USED to think of serving their own kind.

White guilt and the 60s movements took that away from them, and told them that if they do that, they're racist.

So the only things that were permitted to them were: serving others (nonwhites), or serving their individual selves.

Meanwhile, Iranians study sciences here in the West quite often with the idea of using it to be a part of the Iranian community, and to serve it and bring credit to it.

In fact, Iranians can't shut up about it if an Iranian achieves something somewhere. They deafen my ears screaming about some Iranian scientist in NASA or something else! 

Some of them have even gone back to Iran, with the idea of helping their own kind! 

They enjoy what is being denied to white Westerners.... they participate in blasting whites with white guilt, while having nothing at all negative to say about their own civilization's history...

....and then some of them blame white Westerners for not being like Iranians! 

The Decline of The West

This has everything to do with the 60s movement and the pushing of white guilt.

When a culture cannot teach its own version of history - i.e. pass on the collective knowledge and pride in the achievements of one generation to the next - the culture won't survive.

That's so obvious it shouldn't need explaining.

You all who were pontificating about American Indians can concieve of American Indians losing their culture as a result of not being able to pass it on from one generation to the next, but for some reason you're unable to appreciate that the same thing can affect white people. 

Someone here was going on about how important it is for Iranian kids in the West to understand their culture and the achievements of their own civilization, and to be able to relate to them.

What version of Iranian history would you all be promoting, if you had been taught in school that Iranians were a nation of slave dealers and ruthless conquerers whose armies laid waste to other people's civilizations and destroyed them; that Iranians colonized other people (which they did)? 

Quick: tell me how many white people you know who were NOT raised on white guilt, and instead were taught about the achievements of their people, and that it is OK to be proud of them? 

RG

I was around when internet was developed. Yes it was funded by DARPA or later ARPA. It was an offshoot of defense spending. Sort of a side project. Iraq is war spending very different from advanced research.

Much of the electronics are results of space research. Again side projects and not direct was spending. In fact NASA is not a part of any war spending. Reagan cut much of university funding. In fact space research has been cut a great deal. Russia also went the same way with cutting its space budget. Before long we are either going to have no real space program or it will be up to "other" nations whomever they may be. Private research is now being touted as a solution. Maybe it works.

Decline of West

I went to graduate school in the West. I saw the makeup of the student body first hand. The decline has nothing to do with the 60s. It has to do with values of greed. Mostly introduced in the 80s on by Reagan and his followers. 

When I was studying Physics we had 50 % Chinese, an less than 20% "white" Americans. I remember one of the "whites" switching to economics telling me why. He said he could get a better job at a far higher pay. He was right.

A banker makes millions in bonus while a Physics Ph.D is lucky to get a job. In the East "Doctor" or "Mohandes" is used as a term of respect. In America it is not specially not engineer. That is why people are not attracted to those professions. 

some facts dear Rozebeh

This is dated , March 21, 2008
"Early on, the Bush administration estimated the Iraq war would only cost about $50 billion at most. But now — five years later — Nobel Prize-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz and Harvard professor Linda Bilmes say their research finds that the real cost of the war — past, present and future costs — will easily reach $3 trillion "

 And i do not believe this was used for Army's research or development... 

But now just imagine if they had spent this amount on the stem cell research for example ..

Also don't forget that the human cost of the war is not even measurable .... 

I'm familiar with those diseases

And it's thanks to White (European) people that lame-brain reputation-fixated Iranians are alive now, Mr. Khalili.

Mr. Khalili, I'm full-blooded Iranian and I know exactly what you are saying. Yes, Iranian history and Iranian flora and fauna were catalogued, uncovered, and studied by European minds. A simple look at the names of those who discovered and deciphered inscriptions and artifacts shows that Iranians were not involved, except for as guides and sheep herders.

Common deceny, touted so vehemently as an Iranian forte, has not reared its head with this Iranians. I think that it's another duplicitous exaggeration. In fact, this shouldn't be surprising as Iranians are some of the biggest liars there are, except for Jews, naturally.

Listen to me say some scandalous things about Iranians: //reasonradionetwork.com/20110727/the-stark-t...

 Mr. Khalili, my website discusses Iranians as well: iranianforaryans.com

what an amazing blog!

A classic iranian.com!

With respect, what is wrong with checking your facts before writing a comment?

Arj:  "becoming #1 in science olympia" for a few young people, does not mean a hoot as far as the past, present or future ecomonical prospect of those young people's country of birth is concerned. It takes a combination of factors such as  ingenuity, infrastructure, work ethic, investment and above all , the key enabler,  a healthy social and political condition for a country to become a "future tech leader". To that end, that would exclude one of the countries on your list, for sure :)

Soosan khanoom:  when you state: " these days because the money that should be spending on research and development is being spent on war", do you realise that the internet you are using was a direct commercial application of a DOD research programme under Reagan for secure NATO communication in event of Nuclear war with russians? The same goes with your cell phone, and lots of electronics components which make your car, TV and computer work?

Well, maybe after all, everything did happen after islam!

"Personal business must yield to collective interest."

in terms of various scientific research

I should say Iran actually is doing pretty good job now  despite all the sanctions ..  but if we are behind it is not people's fault as much as it was and still is the fault of people who govern them.    

Now if U.S is a pioneer in many-things , it is because of its policy especially when it comes to attract the brilliant minds from around the world and grant them citizenship.  iranian policy is quite vise versa , they not only do not attract any one but also they strongly repel their own brilliant minds.... 

In general there is no inferior race ... it is the opportunity that exists for some and does not exist for others to allow them to flourish and reach their full potentials ...  

and to this add the idea of war. . Even western countries scientifically are suffering these days because the money that should be spending on research and development is being spent on war .

JK

do not make me laugh about Ph.D being invented by the west ...

and while you are on this topic. could you please tell me why when someone earns a degree he or she wears academic regalia?

Where did that type of clothing come from?   Go back to its root and do not trust the wikipedia on that either ..... It talks about medieval custom ... medieval  my foot !!   During medieval they were burning women accusing them of witches and they would kill anyone who would say that the earth is not flat. While academic regalia ( slightly in different form) used to be worn by Scholars and Professors who lived in Balk , Bokhara, Baghdad, and Jundi Shapour  while teaching courses at the universities, as the result today it is being worn once one receives a degree which suggests that they are now qualify to teach for example or at least they are at that honorable position...... 

Academic regalia was a dress code back then for professors .... 

Now just look at how stupid IRI is ..... They banned wearing it after revolution ( i have heard it is not ban anymore ) but at the time they  thought it is a western thingy as well ...... How ignorant and stupid they were and still are even of their own Islamic history. !!!!!  

How Many of You Are Familiar With

... the history of Malaria, Cutaneous Leishmaniasis or Leprosy in Iran?

VPK , You were right actually

You were right actually about Iran at the time of Arab invasion having the universities.  Although my point was mostly the medical schools and how greatly they flourished afterwards....

I was curious about what you said and I did my own little research inspired by you .... I found an interesting paper which is published by a Clinical Professor of Medicine at the University of Louisville School of Medicine who is also the President of the Islamic Research Foundation International, 

 //www.al-hakawati.net/english/Culture_Traditions/Islamic_Medicine_Ahead_of_its_Time.pdf

Islamic Medicine: 1000 years ahead of its times  

In 636 A.D., the Persian City of Jundi-Shapur,which originally meant beautiful garden, was conquered by the Muslims with its great university and hospital intact. Later the Islamic medical schools developed on the Jundi-Shapur pattern. Medical edu-cation was serious and systematic. Lectures and clin-ical sessions included in teaching were based on the apprentice system. The advice given by Ali ibnul- Abbas (Haly Abbas: -994 -A.D.) to medical students is as timely today as it was then'. "And of those things which were incumbent on the student of this ar(medicine) are that he should constantly attend the hospitals and sick houses..

and here is its  summary

. ...............By the ninth century, Islamic medical practice had advanced from talisman and theology to hospitals with wards, doctors who had to pass 

tests, and the use of technical terminology. Then, the Baghdad General Hospital incorporated innovations which sound amazingly 

modern. The fountains cooled the air near the wards of those afflicted with fever; the insane were treated with gentleness; and at night 

the pain of the restless was soothed by soft music and storytelling. The prince and pauper received identical attention; the destitute 

upon discharge received five gold pieces to sustain them during convalescence. While Paris and London were places of mud streets 

and hovels, Baghdad, Cairo and Cardboard had hospitals open to both male and female patients; staffed by attendants of both sexes. 

These medical centers contained libraries, pharmacies, the system of interns, externs, and nurses. There were mobile clinics to reach 

the totally disabled, the disadvantaged and those in remote areas. There were regulations to maintain quality control on drugs. 

Pharmacists became licensed professionals and were pledged to follow the physician's prescriptions. Legal measures were taken to 

prevent doctors from owning or holding stock in a pharmacy. The extent to which Islamic medicine advanced in the fields of medical 

education, hospitals, bacteriology, medicine, anesthesia, surgery, pharmacy, ophthalmology, psychotherapy and psychosomatic dis- 

eases are presented briefly.  

The Decline of the West

Is directly the result of such nonsense as the 60s movements and this "Eurocentrism" rubbish that taught white people to feel guilty about themselves.

They are supposed to feel guilty that they conquered others, or used their power to benefit themselves. 

Because of this, white people are not allowed to teach their own history from their own viewpoint to their own children - something Iranians, Indians, and Chinese take for granted.

Do you think that Iranians, Chinese or Indians never had slaves, or that their empires were not the result of military conquest?

White people should stop caring about what others think of them, and do what Iranians, Chinese and Indians do: teaching their children to be proud of the achievements of their own civilization and to be unapologetic.

Follow the lead of these people who use words like "Eurocentrism" and who try to beat you over the head with guilt, but refuse to examine their own deficiencies.

Their philosophy seems to be that no one gets ahead by apologizing, and they point to evidence that they are surpasing the West as proof of their greatness...

... so learn from them. 

The decline

Dear VPK, a look at the top nations in science olympiads speaks volumes about who the future front runners of science and technolgy are going to be. Iran is almost always among the top ten along with India, China, Vietnam, Romania, Russia... while former colonial powers such as British, French, the U.S., Spain, Italy, Germany are nowhere near the top ten! Indeed by mid century, these declining powers will lose their advantageous positions to the up and coming developing nations!

This Internet and Computer - Invented By White People

Thank you, white people!

I'm going to say thank you, because you deserve it! 

Iranians, Indians and Chinese Get PhDs

So what?

The West invented them.

Thank the West. Where's your manners? 

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Philosophy 

"Eurocentrism" And The Helpless Poor Dear Little Iranians

So its the fault of Europeans that Iranians and Indians failed to remain masters of their countries - its NOT the fault of Iranians and Indians.

Its the fault of the Europeans that most archeology books on Iran are written by Europeans, and that if Iranians want to study their own archeology (not that I have seen a huge interest), they have to refer to them and go study them in London. 

Makes sense. 

Re: Eurocentrism

Arj, I agree with you completely. One of the first actions in colonization is to destroy self respect. Make the indigenous people feel worthless. Hammer it in their heads that they are inferior. Once they accept it then submission follows. The strong belief in our culture is what has thus far saved the Iranian identity. Thanks to poets like Ferdowsi. 

This worked for several centuries until recently. Now it is backfiring big time. I work in high tech. It is filled with Iranians; Indians and Chinese. When I was in graduate school the same story. India is rapidly proving there is nothing inferior about the "dark" people of the East. They are producing Ph.D. in sciences at a very high rate. China is catching up but has some way to go. 

Regarding "Westernized" I am not sure what to make of it. Maybe you are right about being infatuated by the West. I remember back in Iran a teacher telling me how Americans never lie; never cheat and are totally honest. Well he is not here to see the banking and financial fiasco. It makes the Mullahs look like amateurs. It boil down to every culture has its good and its bad people.

Eurocentrism

Dear VPK, Eurocentrism was and still is the drive behind the colonial policies of the now-declining Western powers since the advent of Mercantile Imperialism. This view was not only held by their operatives and enforcers, but also by their loyal indigenous lakeyes who played as their fifth culumn. Many out of greed and yet many due to ignorance and a feeling of inferiority towards their new European masters coupled with a sense of shame and contempt for their fellow countrymen (kind of a swarthy version of Uncle Tom as opposed to the original negro one)!

Unfortunately our history has no shrtage of such sell-outs who thought our nation was perpetually indebted to freigners and put their British masters' interests ahead of their nation! 

P.S. I would not consider those Iranians as "Weternized," but rather Western groupies. For Westernization is not confined to infatuation!

..................

Dear Parham, had listening to Wagner been one of the criteria on his list, Hitler would've qualified as god! Ironically, I like Wagner too, but never had the urge to invade Poland. Maybe I did not like him as bad as Hitler!!!

Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

About "Westernized" Iranians looking down on regular Iranians, and the Shah preferring the company of an average American to that of an educated Iranian, I understand and recognize both for what they are.

The most loudly pretensious "Westernized" Iranians understand nothing about the West or its history, and simply like some appearance they've picked up from Hollywood - or whatever current fashion is being touted.

The pretensciousness of much of Iran's elite is also ridiculous. And my criticism is in fact largely directed towards them.

Who would expect an Iranian dehati to have shown a scientific interest in Iran's wildlife?

Rather, that is the failing of Iran's elite.

But there are also oppressive aspects of Iranian culture as a whole.

Its hard to do new things when everyone has a say in what everyone else does, and you cannot get away from people minding your business. 

Iranians cannot blame the West for the fact that they showed no interest in their own archeological treasures, or didn't care about studying their own wildlife.

The West didn't prevent them from doing those things; they themselves - with their rigid ideas of what is proper and acceptable - did. 

Well Arj

I see we are in agreement once again. It is a shame that some people measure culture by how "European" you are. How the heck is an Aztec supposed to know about Mozart anyway? 

The degree of conditioning on some Iranians is unbelievable. They seem to be in pre1800s were racism against non Europeans was standard. No wonder Europeans committed some of the most savage acts against non whites!

It is just that kind of thinking that resulted in revolution. The "westernized" Iranians looked down at regular Iranians. My father told me Shah preferred company of an average American to the most educated Iranian. Now wonder he was so detached.

Hitler actually...

... liked Wagner a lot. Whereby the quote from Woody Allen: "Every time I hear Wagner I get the urge to invade Poland."

Re civilization

Dear Siavash 300, may I ask on what knowledge do you base your claim that native Americans lack in education, culture and history of civilization? Have you ever heard of Mayan, Aztec or Inka civilizations? Have you ever read about culture and civilization of Native Americans? Do you know about their arts, literature and mythology? Are you aware of their relationship with nature and ecological cycles? Do you know anything at all about their enveironmental awareness which BTW predates ours by centuries?

Moreover, if listening to Mozart and Beethoven were the basis for assessing one's degree of civilization, Hitler would qualify as a civilized icon with flying colours! They say ignorance is a bliss, well... I guess it's not!

Bravo, Siavash300

I learned to appreciate the contributions of the West by living in Iran.

... and I learned to appreciate them from Iranians. 

I didn't learn anything about them by living in the West.

I certainly never learned about the marvelous achievements of the West from any Westerner. 

For every Iranian who jumps on the West-bashing bandwagon, there is another who is honest enough to give the West credit for the technological marvels and the scientific advances it has brought to the world.

My criticism here is for Iranians who are too proud and too arrogant to admit that Iran or Iranians were ever deficient at anything. 

Dear Siavash

Please do research on Native Americans. I find your characterization of them very insulting and uninformed. I know a lot about them. Their culture is deeply spiritual; ancient and very powerful. 

They include Aztecs; Maya; Inca and had a very highly developed civilization. Including calendars; pyramids and absolutely gorgeous art work. I also do not think Mozart is a requirement for being advanced. They had their own beautiful music.

American Indian people and colonial powers

Aside hospitability of American Indians, they lack in education and culture. They lack civilized history. They have premitive culture that has been marked with cannibalism in some tribes. No one in rational mind can compare the great civilzation of Europe following industralization with tribes of native americans. It is funny to hear that one native american listern to Mozart or Bebthoven. No culture.  Most of misunderstanding comes from not knowing history of native americans or at least lack of knowledge of European "instustrial revolution". On the other hand, what has been referred as "colonial power" ,BTW very colorful word, is the fact that Europe reached techonology and industralization sooner than other nations. More the less, we have to appreciate civilization and progress and NOT to talk about it in a negative way.

Treasure!

Dear SK, this treasure that you endear so much is nothing new! It's called 'Orientalism' and has been used by Colonial powers and their lackeyes for centuries. If you remember, a while back you complained about the view of Westerners with regards to Iranians an even native Americans (Indians). That is exactly the view disseminated by the Western colonial powers to justify their plunder of the indigenous nations of the East -- and by extention, the native peoples of the the newly-found territories!