IDEAS

Concluding the Thread

Once again, I would like to thank everyone for their participation and contributions. It has been my pleasure to visit with you on this thread. Until the next article…

fine vilde!

You don't have to answer anything anyway, but don't get carried away with the word "creature", its is not equivalent to 'Heyvon'. In some sense we are all creatures, humans included. Additionally, nobody but myself deleted my comment as I realized you could find it upsetting instead of funny.

BTW, if you are so sensitive, why do you make statements such as the one below when you very well know that at least one Muslim is reading your comment. ...... don't think for a moment that you bother me with that because I am a Muslim, I don't believe in any religion but I consider your kind of statement like Ahmadinejad's statement about Israel. 

MKM: WHo do you think you

MKM: WHo do you think you are?? Do you think I didn't read the infantile comment you wrote, which was subsequently deleted precisely for its mendacious tone?

I don't owe any explanation to anyone who calls me "Heyvon" all the time.

Enough is enough...

vilde's revelations!

Vildemose says: "I'm comforted in the fact that in the next  50 years, there will be no sheikh and no Islam left in Iran and for that we should be grateful to IRI and their lackeys."

vilde jaan, can you elaborate on your revelations, specially the number 50!? Please forgive this hagheer and don't regard this as questioning your prophecy!

Yes, Iran is a muslim country...

.... Despite Islam being forced upon the population by the sword throughout history.

From its inception 1400 years ago, Islam was mostly a forced religion. Even several centuries ago, when the Safavids took over, the Shia version was shoved down people's throat.

And because of this periods of forced conversion, today Iran is a muslim country. Can we change history? No.

Let's say there are two hypothetical opposition camps against both the IRI and the deceptive reformists. One camp does not hide its dislike of Islam and attacks it whenever possible. The other camp restrains from attacking Islam or even critisizing it.

Which camp do you think will have a better rate of success in recruiting supporters in Iran from all layers of society?

Today, our priority should be to free Iran and to establish a democratic and secular government. Teaching people about the flaws of Islam should be at the bottom of the list.

There are many Iranians who are silent today. Because they don't like the reformist's political Islam, but they don't appreciate the other extreme which constantly bombards Islam either. They have no options, nowhere to go, no leaders to follow, so they remain silent and only watch.

This is a huge asset that is getting wasted because we don't know our priorities. For a true secular movement to succeed, we must understand our priorities and make sacrifices by restraining our many strong positive or negative feelings toward Islam or even toward past political figures.

طنز مسلمانان

به پایان آمد این نقل و مذاکره، ولیکن دسیسه همچنان باقیست...

خانه بهائیان پناه مسلمانان: بزرگترین طنز دوران بیداری...

Dear Anvar: Eloquently put.

Dear Anvar: Eloquently put. The sense of entitlement without merit is disturbingly bigotted and racist and sadly, I don't think they are even aware of it. There has been instances in my own family where my mother who has a heart of gold sounds like a rabid racist against Bahia and the Jews but she really has no ill intention towards them and would treat them them with utmost respect...It's so ingrained and part of the norm of the society and culture. 

The pre-emptive cry-wolf expression of irrational fear for the alleged upcoming waves of revenge, exile, forced conversion(!), and bloodshed against Muslims is intriguing.  I guess, with a slight modification, this old Persian proverb is applicable here:  ‘kaafar hame raa be kish-e khod pendaarad!’  

They fear not for losing their lives but their unjustly privileged livelihood.   

And to the overly dramatic good Muslims lamenting an upcoming, real or imaginary, backlash against them in Iran:  If God-forbid such a day ever comes; I’d like to offer you our (Baha’i) homes in which you may take refuge.  Of course, had you not remained silent when the rest of our properties were confiscated and our houses of worship destroyed, then you would’ve had more hiding places.

benross

What kind of referendum is it when you already have chosen that we have only two choices?

OK here are my answers:

Islamic Republic Constitution  (present one)          NO

Islamic Monarchy Constitution (last one)               NO

Now what happens to me. get out of picture for another 30 years?

You call this idea of yours democracy?!!! or you just want Reza pahlavi in power no matter how?

visit:      www.seculariran.org

Now these are very reasonable (to Laleh)

"We all have heard it time and again: The majority of Iranians are Muslims.

This is a claim that can’t be supported by any scientific data.
Iranians have always been under various types of “pressure” to be good, practicing Muslims. The perpetrators of this social pressure have been two groups: Mullahs and Muslim fanatics.

Even long before the establishment of IRI, this pressure manifested
itself in many ways. For examples, merchants couldn’t conduct business easily and freely in Iran’s bazaars if it became known that they were practicing any other religion but Islam. In social settings such as schools, non Muslims were shunned or ignored.

As long as Iranians can’t freely choose their religion, no one can claim what their beliefs are…"

Now you are presenting a strong case, and you did not need to bring in race, blood line, or any of the SS guy terminologies to it. Did you?

Modern Day Alchemists

For centuries, the alchemist tried to transmute base metals into gold and they all failed miserably.  There is no amount of wizardry that can force something to manifest a hidden potential that it does not have.

The next time you confront pseudo-intellectual nouveau-secular reformists, ask them this question:  In their yet to be realized Utopian Islamic Republic, can an Iranian Baha’i be the minister of Education, Health, or Social Services?  If the answer is yes, then consider their background, record, and credibility before believing them.
(Disclaimer: Baha’is do not participate in partisan politics but strive to serve humanity in other ways.)

Unlike some recently-awakened self-preserving reform-advocating Muslims, we have always advocated the separation of (all) religions from politics.  The arguments, with these so-called reformists, stem from the fact that they insist on Political Islam having the last word in a Pretend Secular Society.  

I, for one, never bought this gold and many of those who did want their money back.  There’s no alchemical process refinement that can produce gold, and there’s no “reform” that can make a failed theocracy practical or ideal.

As for the empty label of Islamophobe goes, don’t even try it with me.  Ironically, of all the people in the world, religious or not, in addition to Muslims only Baha’is believe in the divinity of Islam and that the prophet Muhammad was from God.  We have just taken the mantle of “reform” all the way.  

I know that there are a lot of ‘good’ Muslims in Iran.  Sadly, I also know that every single sanctioned atrocity against Baha’is in Iran has been committed by the self-identified Muslims, and in the name of Islam.  Not being God, I cannot determine who is a ‘real’ Muslim and who is not; especially, when even they themselves have not been able to make that distinction over the centuries.  I just can’t help but to observe that they collectively do everything they wish and reap all the benefits as a group, but when their stability gets slightly threatened then they conveniently start making distinctions between the ‘true’ or ‘good’ Muslims and other supposed imposters.

The pre-emptive cry-wolf expression of irrational fear for the alleged upcoming waves of revenge, exile, forced conversion(!), and bloodshed against Muslims is intriguing.  I guess, with a slight modification, this old Persian proverb is applicable here:  ‘kaafar hame raa be kish-e khod pendaarad!’  

They fear not for losing their lives but their unjustly privileged livelihood.   

And to the overly dramatic good Muslims lamenting an upcoming, real or imaginary, backlash against them in Iran:  If God-forbid such a day ever comes; I’d like to offer you our (Baha’i) homes in which you may take refuge.  Of course, had you not remained silent when the rest of our properties were confiscated and our houses of worship destroyed, then you would’ve had more hiding places.

However, when you come, bring your own tea and tea set if, even then, you find yourself preoccupied with that Najis thingy.  After all, I have yet to figure out which group believes that the Baha’is are Najis (impure/unclean).  Is it the ‘true’ Muslims or the ‘fake’ ones?  Let me know if you have a solution to this Catch-22.  ;-)

Anvar

LalehGillani

I meant to say that for secularism to work in Iran, it should protect Islam and all other religions, including atheism. I did not mean it should single out one religion such as Islam as favorite or as a reject.

To me protecting all religions is the same than protecting people's rights to practice any religion they choose, and it is not the same as promoting religion. I would be against promotion of religion. I think perhaps we are misunderstanding each other due to syntax and wordings.

Regarding wiping Islam out of Iran, my apologies for having misunderstood you. It was stupid of me to take Mammad's words on your views. I shall hit my head on the wall a few times!

Is Iran a Muslim Country?

We all have heard it time and again: The majority of Iranians are Muslims.

This is a claim that can’t be supported by any scientific data. Iranians have always been under various types of “pressure” to be good, practicing Muslims. The perpetrators of this social pressure have been two groups: Mullahs and Muslim fanatics.

Even long before the establishment of IRI, this pressure manifested itself in many ways. For examples, merchants couldn’t conduct business easily and freely in Iran’s bazaars if it became known that they were practicing any other religion but Islam. In social settings such as schools, non Muslims were shunned or ignored.

As long as Iranians can’t freely choose their religion, no one can claim what their beliefs are…

Souri

My views on Islam have not changed. But considering what is happening to our people in Iran, I believe that the establishment of a secular democratic government in Iran should override everything else, including our personal feelings about Islam, or about Mossadegh, the Shah or Shariati, and so on.

//www.petitiononline.com/Maat2/petition.html

Protect Religions or Freedom of Religion?

Jamshid wrote, “As for you Laleh, although I respect your views, but you are almost in the gray area as far as secularism goes. A true secular will not believe in wiping out Islam from Iran. I am an agnostic and Islam would be the last religion I would convert to, but whether we want it or not, Iran is a majority moslem country. A true secular would actually do his/her best to "protect" Islam (as well as all other religions.)“

No one is talking about “wiping out Islam from Iran.” This is the type of fear mongering that the reformist movement has orchestrated.

For Iran’s Muslim intellectuals, it is inconceivable to “demote” Islam to a private choice of individuals and send it to people’s homes and mosques. The type of Islam practiced by our Muslim intellectuals is synonymous with politics and can’t be deprived of its lifeline. Hence, Iran’s Muslim intellectuals fear that their “Islam will be wiped off the map” when a secular government rules the country.

It doesn’t serve the interests of a secularist to protect Islam or any religion. Instead, the freedom of individuals to practice any religion must be protected. There is a vast difference between these two types of protections:

The former promotes religious beliefs while the later endorses freedom of religion.

Long term interests of Islam

Nationalists actualy serve long term interests of Islam & other religions better by virtue of sending it back to peoples houses & spirirts as a private spiritual channell than making a dokoon for buncha charlatans like M who worship Islam for power as political Islam. All this phony supporters of Islam who all claime to be former lefties & accuse nationalists as being muslim killers with not one shred of proof are the main culprit behind the bad rap Islam(their political Islam) is getting these days. Was Islam better off under nationalist shah or religious khomeini? . The fight is not against muslims but against bi vatans.

Path of Kiaan Resurrection of True Iran Hoisting Drafshe Kaviaan //iranianidentity.blogspot.com //www.youtube.com/user/samsamsia

Referendum

Most of those who want a secular regime are religious. This is not the issue. The issue is that by amalgamating secular requests with 'workability' of political activity within IRI we are killing a national discussion and a national historical decision to come to a conclusive term. It means that we are perpetuating a society in crisis which only sees a social peace and stability if a secular regime came in power.

A referendum on past and present constitutions of iran can be a rallying point for secularist, while leaving the peaceful space of national discussion, not only among the supporters of each of these two historic path that Iran has chosen in modern time, not only among secularists themselves, to develop a more profound and strategic understanding about the future of Iran, but also -and it shouldn't be undermined- to provide a better political space for supporters of IRI themselves, to develop their ideas, and evaluate their real strength and resolution, without being able to use the secular forces of the society as their powerless backup crowd for the show.

In other words, let's Soroush, Khatami and others speak, but to speak to IRI supporters, to those who referendum coming, will vote in support of IRI constitution. Don't let them talk from both sides of the mouth. Because they are confusing both camps of IRI supporters and securlarism supporters and this damages the national debate and discussion that we should be carrying on in clarity, on those two fundamentally different historic paths that Iran has experienced.

A referendum between the two constitution, after which the structure of the country can be developed, without any chronic and permanent crisis. This is the rallying point for secularists, and for a true national debate and resolution.

If you focus on a non historic constitution, you are giving a god sent gift to IRI, because the discussion will no longer be the historic content, but the wording of this or that article. This will never ever become a social movement. Open your eyes please. 

Even Failed Prophet is getting it!

"But even from a practical point of view it is best to leave religion alone."

Wow!!!

"As long as you attack Islam, you will not be able to gain any
significant approval from the masses in Iran. There is a proper time
for everything. Now is not the time to attack Islam."

Is that you, Jamshid, who say that? I can't believe my eyes :)

Either you have tremendously changed your views for better, or....

I couldn't get your point in the past.

Either way, I truly appreciate reading those lines from you.

معیار پست اصلاح طلبان

قتل عام شهروندان به هر بهانه و دلیلی که باشد، کشتار ناحق است. بعلاوه، فرقی نمیکند اگر صد نفر کشته شدند یا ده میلیون.

دام سبزها برای ملت ایران همیشه از این قرار بوده است:

اصولگریان از اصلاح طلبان خونخوار تر هستند. اصلاح طلبان کمتر میکشند، کمتر غارت میکنند و به مردم آزادی های بیشتری میدهند. زمانی هم که میکشند، فقط خون مجاهدین خلق و کمونیست ها را میریزند... پس به اصلاح طلبان رای دهید. میان بد و بدتر، بد را انتخاب کنید...

معیار دادخواهی هیچ انسانی نباید چنان پست باشد...

Re: Secular

As long as you attack Islam, you will not be able to gain any significant approval from the masses in Iran. There is a proper time for everything. Now is not the time to attack Islam. Once a secular government is established, people (of both sides) can then preach their views without fear of persecution, and people can decide for themselves.

I would add that religion feeds on being attacked. If you leave religion alone people are more likely to become moderate. If you force religion on people they become anti religion. If you ban religion people are likely to become fundamentalists.

But even from a practical point of view it is best to leave religion alone. Just let people have their choice. We will be fine. This coming from me a person with little interest in any religion.

Secular

Mammad: You are not a secular. You have stated many times that you believe in forming Islamic parties, which is again the same than mixing religion with government. A better term to describe you, Soroush and other reformists is "moderate fundementalists", or "political Islamists". A true secular would be against religion in government in any form. You don't even understand the meaning of the word secular.

As for you Laleh, although I respect your views, but you are almost in the gray area as far as secularism goes. A true secular will not believe in wiping out Islam from Iran. I am an agnostic and Islam would be the last religion I would convert to, but whether we want it or not, Iran is a majority moslem country. A true secular would actually do his/her best to "protect" Islam (as well as all other religions.)

People still should be able to preach Islam and preach other religions as well, and critisize Islam and critisize other religions, all without fear of persecution.

As long as you attack Islam, you will not be able to gain any significant approval from the masses in Iran. There is a proper time for everything. Now is not the time to attack Islam. Once a secular government is established, people (of both sides) can then preach their views without fear of persecution, and people can decide for themselves.

Re: Are we supposed to feel better ...

Well said Anahid Jan:

The IRR does not kill because of race the kill because of religion.  Just if you happen to be a secular then you better pretend to be Muslim. If you are Bahai then god help you.

I feel so much better now! All I have to do it lie about my religious beliefs and I get to keep my head.

The term "Ommatie"

used by me the SS guy has absolutly nothing to do with being a Muslim or following a sect, dimwit Ommatie!.  It covers wide range of stateless ideologues & anti Kiaani elements that adheres to that mentality be it that they might belong to Atheists/leftojunkies/seculars/shaikhists/status quo safi ali shahi saltanat talabs and cheerleader crowds of status quo cultural or what ever background they come from. 

Genicide?cleansing?=7 million forced migrants? kidding me? .  Iranian women (35 millions) to you are the same as what Jews were to Nazis. They are the 5th class citizens behind Shia men, sunni men,Iraqi shia men(like aagh Saadegh Najafi Larijani), They both have to wear star of David(Hejab), no freedom of movement & travel(men have to okay their traveling), They both are segregated socialy,academicaly, they both lack opportunity of higher advancement in either public or private sectors, they can never get selected or elected as leaders of republic,...etc in short worth half the men . add to it 10 million sunni Kurds & Balouch as 2nd class citizens of republic.

Path of Kiaan Resurrection of True Iran Hoisting Drafshe Kaviaan //iranianidentity.blogspot.com //www.youtube.com/user/samsamsia

Are we supposed to feel better that thousands killed in Iran...

So according to marhoum kharmagas, IRI did not do ethnic cleansing.  Kharmags wrote:"...IRI/Muslim fanatics have killed many during past thirty years in Iran, absolute majority of them not only typical Iranians but also Muslim Iranians (MEKs), or what the SS guy calls Ommaties." So are we supposed to feel better that thousands of Iranians killed by IRI were killed because of their ideas not because of their ethnicity?  Somehow, I don't think any real human gets any satisfaction out of this  fact.  Mass killing is mass killing, be it result of ethnic cleansing or result of idea cleansing.

On a Pedestal

Well said Laleh Jan. These people feel entitled to special treatment. Once a secular government is in power they will scream discrimination. Right now criminals like Soroush benefit from all the rights in the West that they denied Iranians. I wonder if Mr. Soroush would like ask Western universities like Harvard where he lectures to kick out non Muslims? Or is he only brave in Iran with the cover of the basiji. I don't understand why this guy is even is in the West and not in jail.

On a Pedestal

Vildemose wrote, “In a secular Iran, you can criticize any religion and not get executed. I think the Islamists have a problem with that little minor inconvenience of a secular society. Hence, their murderous rage of "victimhood" on this site.

Iran’s Muslim intellectuals are devout religious people who can’t accept anything but a privileged status in the society. This privileged status, in their view, neither stems from their intellect nor their education. Not even from their nationality or humanity.

Our Muslim intellectuals are there, high up on a pedestal, because of their devotion to Islam.

Giving up this privileged status is painful. The kicking and the screaming will continue for quite a while even after the establishment of the secular democracy in Iran…

In a secular Iran, you can

In a secular Iran, you can criticize any religion and not get executed. I think the Islamists have a problem with that little minor inconvenience of a secular society. Hence, their murderous rage of "victimhood" on this site.

Easy Faili "jaan"

Faili "jaan", I do have high respect for patriotic progressive Muslims (people such as Mammad) who are trying to reform the country, but that does not mean I am a Muslim!

BTW, Failed Prophet "jaan", you want me out of west, come catch me and kick me out if you can!

here u go into Palestine to PotPol to justify IRI - stick w/ IRI

Even what IRI did to MKO, monarchists..... and others in the prison, without proper court/jury/attorney/appeal process was 7th century barbaric justice, at best.

MKM

I am neither Muslim nor Islamist, and more importantly I don't live in Iran, so I have no worries for myself if likes of you or the SS guy come to power

Sure, I can tell from your posts that you are not an Islamist ! No more than the Pope is a Catholic. I know all about taggiyeh.

How do you know I am even talking about you? After all your posts about genocidal Americans and Germans what are you doing in the evil West anyway? Run back to a safe non genocidal Islamic nation. Hurry before it they get you.

If all you know is to throw insults then I am done with you.