DEMOCRACY

I respectfully disagree

Dear Ben

I agree with some of the readers that there was (and is ) no such thing as Islamic civilization. Islamic rulers simply conquered many much more advanced civilizations of the time and naturally after being conquered such civilizations continued to present themselves within the limits that they now had under the central empire of the "Islamic" rulers. Islam came from Bedouin Arab Peninsula and in reality Islam was the beneficiary of the intellect of the nations that it conquered and not vice versa!!

On another note, I also think that the presumption that Khomeini was all responsible is too simplistic. He did not become a beneficiary of the revolution in a vacuum. Khomeini was the product of the majority SHIA masses (98%) financed by the Shia financial elite of Bazaar and justified by their educated children confused with flawed philosophies of those such Ali Shariati's.

It was a national experience and error!  Think of how German population believed in Hitler's Nazi philosophy for a while and how dearly they paid for it but the final result was a smarter nation who knows better today....

As horrible as the Shia-Iranian "Islamic Republic" experience has been but in the historical perspective, which that our generation may not be a full beneficiary of, the new and next generations are and will be much wiser than the ones the preceded them (us) in the path they will take.

The imported technology of the "Persian Gulf" Emirates or imported governments such as Iraq and Afghanistan are not substitutes for true historical understanding of democracy through trial and errors.

I wrote to a friend in an email earlier this week and I repeat it here too:

"Democracy is a seed that needs water, sun, good weather, time and constant care and it is only then that we can enjoy its flowers and fruits. It is only then that we can lay under its shade and enjoy its beauty for years to come. Democracy can not be imported, planted nor forced...”

Keep up the good work..

Ben

interesting article..

Re

I don't see it as fruitful to blame Islam for Iran's ills. It is much more reasonable and correct to blame the Iranian regime!

Disagreements

Dear Ben,
I know we see this somewhat differently. I have respect for differences of opinion of this sort. That is why it is good to have debates. :-)
My point is the Europeans did not adopt any Islamic worldview to change. What they got were translations of old texts and new commentaries written on them. The reason they even started to look for them and absorb them is what had already started the engine. It was a slow reemergence of free inquiry. The defeats of the Crusade had more to do with it than any Islamic influence.

I don`t know why you exclude Turkey. Turkey is the nearest any muslim land has come to freedom and progress. Deep and constant progress with secularism and the atmosphere of freethought that allows gradual growth. I see nothing of the sort in Persian Gulf Arab states.

Fred, you point is well taken. Persian Gulf as you said has always been the official name in both Israel and the US, unlike the islamic brothers of the IRI. One more reason why the current situation is so unnatural, and thus dangerous. It shows how deranged the entire outlook of the regime in Iran is. What other crazy stances will it take if given the power?

The "golden age" of Islam is

The "golden age" of Islam is a pure myth. Much like the US, many brilliant people even the Jews (Moses Maimonides (one the greates philospher of all times) in those days had to write in Arabic because the muslims had amassed the capital through their jihadists expansions--colonizing other wealthy nations-- to fund these scientistific and literary ventures. That's why everyone wants to come to US from all over the world because the US has the capital/resources/money to fund scientific projects and research whereas other nations don't.

When you're a superpower economically, everyone wants to flock to your shores. Islam was an economic superpower/colonizer back then because of its aggressive conquests of land and wealth of other nations (including brain powers of other nationalities) and ethnic groups.

Ben, Quran is THE souce for Islam.

Can you tell us where you find civilized elements and characteristics in this "book" (Quran) that gives you the audacity to shove “Islamic Civilization” B.S. to us?

Hasn't Iran after 30 years of HD reality show been any help to this "Islamic Civilzation" issue?

Islam not just failed civilizations; it also brought total destruction to civilizations. You better know that conquered nations being genuinely cultured carried their civilized enlightenments under barbaric subjugation of Islamists. Again, see Iranian people, male and female, imagination under savage IRI.

Your conclusion is flawed because of major flaw in your main argument.

Contrary to your last nice article, this is one of the worse and non-sense article you ever wrote.

Re (about Islamic scietnists, philosophers etc)

We can interpret that people like Ibn Sina, Raazi, Kharazmi, Khayyam, Faraabi, Saadi, Hafez, Ferdousi, Zahrawi, Ibn Battuta, Tabari and others who have been Islamic philosophers, scientists etc did not appear because of Islam! But the fact is that the Islamic world did advance, while the Christian world did decline. If one studies history with more objectivity they will notice that Islam had lots of positive consequences too, but I doubt this is the best place to write about this, and I am not exactly the expert to talk about this. Let's not forget that Islam was the product of its time, 1400 years ago.

I agree with Souri in that it is good to see you back......

 It has been way too long since you have written. Good article

solh va doosti/paz a vosotros/paix et amitié

ناتاليا

Litmus test

Geographically speaking, the “Gulf states” repeatedly mentioned in the comment section here and elsewhere is not an internationally recognized location.  It is as if one says United in place of United States, leaving the question open if it is meant United States, United Kingdom, United Arab Emerets or, …If by “Gulf states” the littoral mostly historically speaking recently formed sheikdoms are in mind, the correct term is Persian Gulf states. The name Persian Gulf is as old as written history. In the Middle East where anything has something to do with everything this name change game was instigated by Egypt’s Nasser and has been picked up by anti-Iranian forces in the region. All those Iranians who don’t miss a beat to condemn Israel need to reflect on this fact that even as it has been threatened with annihilation by the Islamist republic for the past three decades she has never ever sided with the enemies of Iranians something that cannot be said for Islamist republic’s paid for ally Syria or their Islamist brethrens elsewhere. Only this week during the nonaligned conference in Tehran the Arab attendees repeatedly referred to the Persian Gulf as the “Arabian Gulf” or “The Gulf” and had the audacity to demand the “return of the occupied Arabian islands in the Arabian Gulf” without the Islamist republic doing a diddly in response

Re: Souri

I see Turkey's social progress because of its positive political over the past 8-9 decades, but the Gulf states have seen their progress mostly due to the oil revenue of the past 2-3 decades. I think the Gulf states as much more interesting as they show that Islamic countries that are small and insecure can propser in today's harsh world if managed well. Gulf states have almost no sophisticated political systems, but they are extraordinary models of economic success, which often count more than political success, which is mostly the case in Turkey.

Well, Turkey is more ethnically diverse than the UAE, but it is much less diverse than Iran, Afghanistan and Sudan indeed. So, this may have indeed been a handy situation for Turkey's political progress, as its population have been more united under the Turk-nation model.

Re:Zion

Dear Zion,

Thank you for your comment! I think I did explain quite a bit of what I thought in the article. I see things a bit different.

thanks

Thanks for the article, even though I see from your article some good intension but I have to agree with Zion on this, it is very important for us to stop Maghlate kardan and instead talk of truth, fortunately Islam is the only religion that has a very clear history and everything that have been done are clearly described by historian, Islam has nothing to do with science, Islam world has not produced even one single philosopher from the start up to now, please name one philosopher from Islam world for the past 900 years ?? we have to be very clear when talking about these kind of subjects, remember it was for all these Maghlate that Iranians still name their kids Ali, Hossein, Changiz and etc even thought all they have done for us were stealing and killing our hamvatan. I do not really pay any attention to other muslim countries but as for Iran I know that our friends from Madineh have brought nothing, I mean completely nothing other than Bardegy keshidane Iranian and stealing the money of those Iranian people, lets not forget Ghadeseyeh war bozorgtarin lakeye nange tarikhe mast az nazare bande.

Ba sepas

Zion, like you and I, Ben is

Zion, like you and I, Ben is on the people's side. Good work though.

Mr. Madaddi, so nice to hear

Mr. Madaddi, so nice to hear from you again, Great article. Keep up the good work.

Problems

I have a few problems with the assumptions of this article.
Ben you write
`Islamic administration...also gave the world the most advanced scientific, architectural, and cultural movements of the time... These advancements partly forced the Christian world to ponder its situation, and somehow, for some reasons, the West, at some point, stood up, looked around, took off, roared, and never looked back! Muslims watched in amazement`

That little question you insert makes a whole lot of difference. Some how for some reason!
It is much more plausible and consistent with the facts to assume that the Islamic administration had almost nothing to do with any philosophical and technical advantage the Middle East had over Europe at that time, but that this was the last remnants and the final breath of a more civilized past that was afterwards completely shut down under Islamic system. It is also not correct to talk about scientific achievements at that point since Science was developed much later in Europe. The Islamic world also shows very little innovation and ingenuity. There were very rare achievements if any. The role was rather that of preserving the older mostly Hellenic knowledge and discoveries and guarding them from being forgotten than any considerable or mentionable achievement.

Europe soared only because it was able to shook off the burden of religious dogma and retain the tradition of free inquiry. Something that is impossible under Islamic mind set and approach. Hence the huge difference.

Gulf arab states have been smart in spending their oil money, but that is all they have been able to do. I see no infrastructure for education and original achievements in any of them. It looks more like expensive houses built on oily sand by others, much too fast and much too sallow to last, than anything even remotely resembling renaissance.

Dear Ben

Good article.

Can you please give more explanation and example about Turkey's progressive politics and also cultural achievement ?

I see this country a lot different from other Muslim countries you mentioned above. Their system is completely different because of the diversity of the ethnical population.

I just want some example to understand better, I have less information about that.

thanks,

Dear Ben

Thanks,enjoyed reading it,especially the last paragraph.