EUROPE

EVERY ONE PLEASE ...

In my last comment I wrote;

Look deeply into her eyes what do you see??

People like her have only one aim and that is AGITATION.

She done it well. You are not stopping are you. When you look into her eyes what do you see? 

Read news

If you read news coverage of Egypt you will see they are becoming more trict compare to their mothers. young girls wear hijab more and more.

/Bidar bash ke ma bekhabim

hehe

who says women wearing more hijab ?in compare of primary tribes , maybe , well its obvious we are covering ourself with clothes though more nowadays !!!!!and ofcourse china and Soveit were unsuccessful , because of uniformity and collectivism they imposed!im not talkin about destroying religion now ,its about mentioning unsaid topics and freedom of speech !

Stupidity or not

That is what people beleive in. You say grandmothers of tomorrow will not wear hijab. Women today are wearing hijab much more than their grand mothers did. Soviet Union and China could not destroy religion how hard they tried.

You are right that there are many ignorant muslims. We all know about the problems in the middle east. What does it help to continue bashing on it? We need a solution to peacefuly transform bad practices. Europe was not thrown out of dark middle ages by American attacking it or forcing Europeans to change their religion. They evolved thanks to renaissance.

/Bidar bash ke ma bekhabim

Bingo Chaghok

You hit the Jack pot , congras , you confessed "Those who beleive in a religion beleive in it because of their culture" , culture changes , for example 100 years ago when Reza Khan forbidenned Hijab , all our grandmas escaped to Andarooni , Right now future grandmas are struggling for not wearing Hijab , so culture changes and  Suggest you to study individualism .the problem of today world is compromising with Hard head Islamists because of oil , I met a Saudi Guy in a company meeting , he was whispering in the ear of an american fellow that God blessed us with Oil and Mecca because we are special people !you can imagine their depth of stupidity , seriously when you enocunter with them and talk with tme , you will understand their mask of islam and he is a married guy who is cheating on his wife occasionally , he did study in UK and he has a thing for Russian girl !

and in my view not talking about stupidity of any religion is cowardism , I see the wrong side and im not too scared to discuss it and im praising people like Ayaan ali !you didnt answer me whether you read the book or not .

Gesundheit  

Religion and Statehood

Religion and statehood are 2 different things. But uf you give the power to theocrats then they would put the religiouse rules in the law.

Punishing the adultres or heretic or forbidding has been a thing of past in Western world since thanks to several events. Things that have not happened or being allowed to happen in Islamic world.

For example several modernizer of Islams who themselves were devoted muslims were harrassed or killed even in Iran for example Rumi and Ahmad Kasravi.  Does this makes them less muslims?

I do not find attacking a religion so helpful nor smart. Those who beleive in a religion beleive in it because of their culture and that they find a comfort in their beleifs. You can then call their religion for bad things and you get nowhere with it.

/Bidar bash ke ma bekhabim

What is your point chaghok?tnx programmer craig

Im talking about changes and totally agree with Programmer craig , well said , if you have a chance , travel to asia and all muslim countries like me to observe what islam has done to 1 billion people , once again my point is human rights , i want to see human beings enjoying life the way it is , which i believe , the only way to let it happen is educating these countries , i dont believe in war and enforcing anything on them !

im not accusing or bad mouthing muslims as well , they did it themselves !

oh if you have time search children of heaven , they ve been on lary king show , a cult accusing of child-sex !or travel to centinel park city , polygamy is very trendy there !

World is no heaven and nobody says secular countries are perfect !

i wonder have you read infidel book or have you read about the writer ?

Gesundheit

choghok

When was the last tikme anyone was executed for a religious crime in a western country? When was the last time anyone was even prosecuted for a religious crime in a western country? It's *illegal* to prosecute somebody for a religious crime in any secular nation. It's a basic human rights violation. And that is why it doesn't matter what Christians (even Chrsitian fundamenatlists) believe - they have no power on this earth to impose their beliefs on anyone else.

But lets forget about the secular West for a moment... can you name any country where Christianity is the law of the land? I can't, except for Vatican City, but that isn't a real country anyway.

On the flip side, can you name any Muslim country where some version of Sharia is not enforced? I can think of a couple, but none of those (secular Muslim countries) is in the middle east.

Saramin

So how come you see these things representing Christianity? Although in Christianity it says that homosexuality should be punished by death. How come you do not see those american hillibilies living in armed fortresses marrying with 10 teen aged girls, or those many other fundamentalist churches representing Christianity. That is what you do with Muslims. You do not see the moderate muslims as Muslims just the fundamentalist muslims. There are over 1 billion muslims and if it would be as bad as you represent you could not even live in the same country as a muslim.

I guess you get your ideas by the battles between US and Israel in middle east. That has got nothing to do with religion and much to do with economics and balance of power. 

Catholics are very much agains gays and using contraceptive, abortion and so on, but you seem to forget.

/Bidar bash ke ma bekhabim

peace

I suggest you  to search internet to figure out , christianity 's tolerance and changes they made up to this day , gay churches , gay priests , female preists , just browse the news , i mean even they interprete word of God now totally  different from 30 years ago , or search fatima's message that pop jean paul (the second) announced to world!now tell me the changes that isalmist have made since Prophet Mohamad , well , none and still they think its the best religion on earth for unknown reasons !!

and sometimes i vent , im not bank y moon so no worries , im just babbling !

Gesundheit

Saramin

Well to a moderate muslim you sound as bad as a Taliban sounds to a westerner. Now I do not defend Islam I feel it to be faulty too. When it comes to peoples beleif we should be respectful and try to fight extremism instead of whole beleif system which is what is extremists like Ali are trying to do.  Christianity and Judaism is as blood sucking as Islam in their fundamentalistic form but you do not see anybody crying that we should enlighten europeans. Some Americans need enlightenment though, the ones living in big sects for example (extremists again). But you do not see them representing Christianity do you?

/Bidar bash ke ma bekhabim

To:Choghok

Hi and No , i dont think im threatening you , im not forcing a gun on your head , im not issueing death penalthy for you , im not a suicide bomber , im not telling to world that all of you are infidel and we musilms are only good on earth !

im just talking , i may sound angry which is i am with ISLAM , i know if you pray 5 times a day you wont harm anybody , im not talking about ethnic cleansing , im talking about brain washed people in islamic countries , people who think they are doing good and heaven awaits for them !why Islam world has no tolerance for anything?why all of this killings?if you know a better version of islam please go and advertise it and heal the pain , im totally with you !

Gesundheit 

Saramin

Don't you think that you and Ali do the same mistake as the killer of  vincent Van Gogh. You put your attitude above the others belief.

You believe that all who beleive in Islam should beconverted since they do not understand better. Just how can you do that if not by force?

/Bidar bash ke ma bekhabim

Submission movie

She is brilliant , few yrs ago  when i watched Submission , I searched about her and Teo Van Goh , world needs more of these wondeful women who contribute freedom to society and I am surprised about how Netherland Gov halts its support of her ,forget about politic , right and left , race and color , just a  moment think about we are all human and 1 B are muslims repressed under Islam ,Islam is not a way of life , its a disgusting imitation of barbarity in most muslim countries , i always wonder what the hell people thinking , i mean the keeper of this religion ?they are human as well , they have desires , temptations and emotions , what was in the mind of the murderer of Van Gogh ?heaven with whores waiting for him ??plausible he was qualifying himself by killing an infidel to heaven i suppose!!??

i wish i could say to him maybe there 's no heaven and hell out there!!!

Programmer Craig

The problem is that USA or any country is not in power to tell the other country what is good for it. Each people should decide for themselves. If Egypt people see fit to elect islamist, then let them and let them be punished for it and take lesson like people in Iran.

Meddling in their internal affairs leads to results like Iran, Syria, Vietnam, Chile and Cuba where USA has tried to control the country by proxy or choose to go in military to actually inforce their beleifs.

Most of these countries are now controled by dictators who isolated their people with the reason that the "enemy" is after them.

I do not mention Afghanistan since going after Talibans was a good cause no matter what the reason was.

/Bidar bash ke ma bekhabim

135

Actualy I was expecting a reaction on my
comment similar to yours. So thanks. Please collect your shield as
facts and evidences are coming.
Do you understand Dutch? If negative, don't worry, there still are
enough English spoken sequences in the following documentary which
reveals her inside out. In case, translation required, just drop the
minutes here.
Zembla is the most trustworthy tv program in Holland, due to its
in-depth approach towards controversial subjects, domestically as well
as internationlly.

//player.omroep.nl/?aflID=2870437

Again and again, please check your facts.
Also change and evolve your style in discussion and reasoning, as it carries no convincing charge.
Expand your knowledge - ten answers or facts does not necessarily cover all sort of subjects in the world.

What was the purpose of that, other than to insult me? I'll pit my general knowledge against yours anytime, anywhere. And I say that not even knowing who you are. I already know from your cheap debating tactics that you don't have confidence in your ability to argue your poitition legitimately.

Somalis are one of the most peaceful and quiet ethnic groups in the
Netherlands.

Who are you trying to sell that to? Have any stats to back it up? We have Somali immigrants here in the US too, you know.

Do you really think throwing one of your ten answers on
everything will be sufficiently convincing? Please post the official
figures

Does the Netherlands even keep "official" figures on the ethnicity and/or the religion of criminals? If so, are they made public? I can't even guess how many times I've read about some horrific crime in Northern Europe where the only evidence that the perpetrator (or perpetrators) were immigrants was in their name. What's that all about? And how do you expect me to prove my claim when I don't have access to the data I need?

How about you prove YOUR claim that Somalis are more peaceful and less inclined to crime than the other immigrant groups?

Come up with something fresher than accusing and labeling people with "IRI agent" in order to be the winner in an argument.

I didn't "label" anyone in this thread, yet. I was merely trying to get you to think about how many Iranians have undoubtedly lied on their paperwork when they wanted to emigrate to another country. It's my guess that an IRI agent has to lie about EVERYTHING to get a visa. Right? :)

But if I was really desperate to get the hell out of where I was living,  and the only way I could qualify was to lie... I would. And I'd hope I didn't get caught.

I know exactly what is your issue? It is islam. And we, by telling
the truth about hirsi, are then automatically affiliated with army of
islam, isn't it? Right on spot!!??

Oh, yes, absolutely right! You have me all nicely stereotyped now! :D

Let me tell you this; Who gives the EFF about the effing islam!!
A charlatan is a charlatan whether on our side or not. Today, they are friends and tomorrow, foes.

Attack her on the substance of what she says, then. My best friend is an Arab Muslim and she totally loathes Hirsi Ali. But attacking her becauyse she lied to get asylum is ridiculous. That's called an "ad hominem" attack:

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

And it is a very poor method of "winning" an argument. But I already mentioned you and your ceezy debating tactics, didn't I? :P

choghok

Well for one thing they could have stopped selling weapons to both
sides of the Iran Iraq war.

I think if you check, you'll find that the US wasn't even in the top 20 of arms suppliers to Iraq during that war. Iraq's number one source was the Soviet Union. The US made arms that Iran had, were bought by the Shah not by the IRI. And if you recall the iran-Contra scandal, it was considered criminal for American armaments to have been knowingly channelled through Isreal to Iran. Some people went to prison over that, and some others were forced to resign. So, I doubt it was happening much :)

And they could have stop supporting Saddam
when he started using Chemical weapons.

I completely agree with you oin this one.

I am not pointing the finger just on USA, some European countries did the same.

Just going from my own recollection, it seems that the Europeans completely supported Saddam. It was a French made "mirage" jet launching a French made "Exocet" missile that almost sank the USS Stark for instance:

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Stark_(FFG-31)

USA could today put much more pressure on Israel to follow the
international law and agreements. They could put financial pressure on
some tyrants in Middle East so that they start letting their countries
be democracies. Instead as long as someone as dirty as Mubarak would
stop all democritization in his country they would still support him.
That has made a country like Egypt which was a relative secular arab
countries to one of more extremes. 

I agree with you on this one too, for the most part. The problem is that there aren't any democratic opposition moveents in teh Arab middle east. The opposition seems to be either Islamist or Socialist. We could argue that this could be changed with the right encouragement, but we'd just be speculating.

craig

Actualy I was expecting a reaction on my comment similar to yours. So thanks. Please collect your shield as facts and evidences are coming.
Do you understand Dutch? If negative, don't worry, there still are enough English spoken sequences in the following documentary which reveals her inside out. In case, translation required, just drop the minutes here.
Zembla is the most trustworthy tv program in Holland, due to its in-depth approach towards controversial subjects, domestically as well as internationlly.

//player.omroep.nl/?aflID=2870437

Again and again, please check your facts.
Also change and evolve your style in discussion and reasoning, as it carries no convincing charge.
Expand your knowledge - ten answers or facts does not necessarily cover all sort of subjects in the world.
Somalis are one of the most peaceful and quiet ethnic groups in the Netherlands. Do you really think throwing one of your ten answers on everything will be sufficiently convincing? Please post the official figures and back your statement on increasing crime in the Netherlands caused by Somalis at the time?
Come up with something fresher than accusing and labeling people with "IRI agent" in order to be the winner in an argument.

I know exactly what is your issue? It is islam. And we, by telling the truth about hirsi, are then automatically affiliated with army of islam, isn't it? Right on spot!!??
Let me tell you this; Who gives the EFF about the effing islam!!
A charlatan is a charlatan whether on our side or not. Today, they are friends and tomorrow, foes.

Programmer Craig

Well for one thing they could have stopped selling weapons to both sides of the Iran Iraq war. And they could have stop supporting Saddam when he started using Chemical weapons.

I am not pointing the finger just on USA, some European countries did the same.

USA could today put much more pressure on Israel to follow the international law and agreements. They could put financial pressure on some tyrants in Middle East so that they start letting their countries be democracies. Instead as long as someone as dirty as Mubarak would stop all democritization in his country they would still support him. That has made a country like Egypt which was a relative secular arab countries to one of more extremes. 

/Bidar bash ke ma bekhabim

choghok

OK since you are insisting that EU has a common foreign policy, who is
the minister of foreign affairs of EU and what has the foreign ministry
done? There has been attempts to create this position but it has always
failed because of the reasoon I mentioned.

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union

It has developed a role in foreign policy, representing its members in the World Trade Organisation, at G8 summits and at the United Nations. 

You don't have to look far to find foreign policy statements being made by the EU. They've been especially active in regards to Palestine and Israel.

Another thing is that I do not think you can compare Afroamericans
that have converted to Islam with muslims from middle east. They do not
have any historical och cultural ties with each other.

I agree. Nation of Islam is not Islam.

I would guess
that these afro americans make the majority of muslims in USA.

I don't think so. I think their numbers are quite small. Maybe I'll try to check later on when I've gota  bit of free time :)

USA foreign policy is also not as democratic and humane as the
internal policies.

Nor should it be!

They tend to support dictatorships and coup detats
if it is in their financial gain or for Israels security. That creates
resentment with people of these countries but not within their own
muslim community far away fromatrocities.

I don't really agree with you. In most (if not all) cases where we have supported a tyrant, there was no "democratic" alternative. It was a choice between which undemocratic leader we wanted to side with. I suppose you coudl argue that the US should refuse to side with anyone under such circumstances, but that isn't very practical.

Programmer Craig

Hi you are very quick to draw conclusions.

OK since you are insisting that EU has a common foreign policy, who is the minister of foreign affairs of EU and what has the foreign ministry done? There has been attempts to create this position but it has always failed because of the reasoon I mentioned.

About muslims: First of all USA and Europe do have different way of doing things. Reagan policies like supporting Saddam and Taliban showed to be pretty bad. His work for melting down the iron wall was pretty good though.

Another thing is that I do not think you can compare Afroamericans that have converted to Islam with muslims from middle east. They do not have any historical och cultural ties with each other. I would guess that these afro americans make the majority of muslims in USA.

USA foreign policy is also not as democratic and humane as the internal policies. They tend to support dictatorships and coup detats if it is in their financial gain or for Israels security. That creates resentment with people of these countries but not within their own muslim community far away fromatrocities.

/Bidar bash ke ma bekhabim

The poor woman lives in

The poor woman lives in hiding because the Islamists have threaten to kill her just like Van Ghoe; That is proof that she is right about Islam. It also validates everything she has said about Islam.

Muslim can't get away with their usual violence. The world has woken up.

It is about women's rights

Is there any educated person today who has not given a few thoughts to these horrendous issue: The violence of fathers against their daughters, of brothers against their sisters. The genital mutilations of Muslim women. The outright murders: the so-called honor killings of women by their fathers or brothers because of some transgression of the sexual code.

About Hirsi Ali we do not have to wonder: where does she stand on the question of stoning women to death? Or on the obligation for husbands to beat their wives? Read one page by her and you will know the answer.

But what about Tariq Ramadan, who is named by Time magazine as one of the 100 most important innovators of the 21st century, and regarded by some as the interlocutor for dialogue between the West and Islam. The truth is he remains a double-faced, dangerous Islamist. Ramadan has taken a remarkable reactionary public stand. His position emerged during the course of a debate in 2003 between him and Nicolas Sarkozy (who was then the French interior minister and has just now become president) on the French television program "One Hundred Minutes to Convince:"

Sarkozy: Just one point. I understand you, but Muslims are human beings who live in 2003 in France, since we are speaking about the French community, and you have just said something particularly incredible, which is that the stoning of women, yes, the stoning is a bit shocking, but we should simply declare a moratorium, and then we are going to think about it in order to decide if it is good.... But that's monstrous-to stone a woman because she is an adulterer! It's necessary to condemn it!

Ramadan: Mr. Sarkozy, listen well to what I am saying. What I say, my own position, is that the law is not applicable-that's clear. But today, I speak to Muslims around the world and I take part, even in the United States, in the Muslim world.... You should have a pedagogical posture that makes people discuss things. You can decide all by yourself to be a progressive in the communities. That's too easy. Today my position is, that is to say, "We should stop."

Sarkozy: Mr. Ramadan, if it is regressive not to want to stone women, I avow that I am a regressive.

And this "regressive" man, the French president, has offered to protect all women worldwide who are oppressed, offering citizenship to Ayan Hirsi Ali.

Something like a campaign against Hirsi Ali could never have taken place a few years ago. A sustained attack on an authentic liberal dissident crying out against injustices in remote parts of the world and even in the back streets of Western Europe, a sustained attack that appears nearly to have erased the very mention of women's oppression and the struggle for women's rights from discussion-no, this could not have happened yesterday, except on the extreme right. This is a new event. This is a reactionary turn in the intellectual world.

She is no Brave Intellectual

Nowadays because of Al-Qaida terrorists and moslem opposition to Israel, everything bashing Islam is glorified. But that time is getting close to an end.

This article states that:
"... now that she is no longer protected by Holland. What is wrong with Europe? "

The answer is simple. Because Holland now understands that she is under no threat and just out there to make money.

The only people who like her are dumb Westerners who still think negatively against Islam and the pro-Israel lobby who will benefit for anything anti-Islamic.

American muslims vs European muslims

US muslims are not poor. Read: they are provided more opportunities here in America

Western European muslims are poor because their socities are still more prejudiced than the US; hence, less chance for life, liberty and prosperity.

Poll: American Muslims reject extremes - USATODAY.com

//www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-05-22-pol...

//www.foreignaffairs.org/20050701faessay84409...

//www.euractiv.com/en/security/opportunities-...

//islam.about.com/od/currentissues/a/usa_inte...

What prompts young British, French or Dutch Muslims to look for such mentors? Senior British insiders say that, although paths to extremism vary widely, they tend to follow certain social and psychological patterns. Frequently, a young Muslim man falls out of mainstream society, becoming alienated both from his parents and from the "stuffy" Islamic culture in which he was brought up. He may become more devout, but the reverse is more likely. He turns to drink, drugs and petty crime before seeing a "solution" to his problems—and the world's—in radical Islam.

Olivier Roy, a French writer on global Islam, has described "neo-fundamentalism" (which may or may not be violent) as a broad reaction by Muslims in western countries against their families and background, as well as against their host societies. As Mr Roy portrays them, such Muslims have abandoned the food, music and customs of the "old country" but still feel repelled by the ethos and values of the "new country". Adrift from both, they are attracted by a simple, electronically disseminated version of the faith which can readily be propagated among people of all cultures, including white Europeans.

Another French "Islamologue", Antoine Sfeir, has identified relations between the sexes as a big factor in the re-Islamization of second-generation Muslims in Europe. Because young Muslim women often do better than men at adapting to the host society (they tend to do better at school, for example), old patriarchal structures are upset and young men acquire a strong incentive to reassert the old order.

In many cases, say British specialists, groups of young, disaffected Muslims goad one another down the path to extremism. People who may be bound together by ethnicity, worship or criminal activity develop a common interest in the suffering of Muslims across the globe. Websites and satellite television channels then supply visual images and incendiary rhetoric from any place where Muslims are fighting non-Muslims. The favorite war used to be Chechnya; now it is Iraq.

As an incipient extremist group grows more obsessive, and its weaker brethren fall away, hard-core members often withdraw from the mosques. Indeed, a big recent trend in European Islam, says Roy, is the mass withdrawal by militants from mosques that are under surveillance. This has made extremism even more elusive, and the internet's influence even greater. To a large extent, "the internet has replaced Afghanistan" as a source of training and inspiration for militant Muslims, says Stephen Ulph, a scholar working for the Jamestown Foundation, an American think-tank.
Excerpt from:

//www.pbs.org/now/shows/230/muslim-extremism-...

choghok

On contrary to your beleifs EU does not have a Foreign policy power.
This is because its members often are at odds with each other on
foreign policy. For example on the Iraq war Spain, GB and Denmark
agreed with USA but most other EU countries did not. This leads to a
common foreing policy being impossible.

That doens't mean the EU doesn't have any foreign policy powers! It just means that the member states are still sovereign nations! Especially when it comes to wars, there can't be any common policy until teh EU has a common military.

I think even an american embassy was burnt some times a go (Serbia).
If the government of the country is behind this then it can be taken as
an act of war, but otherwise what can be done? Should USA have attacked
Serbia because of the burning? What would have been the outcome of the
attack?

There are other options, besides attack! Look what the US did after the US embassy was seized in Tehran in 1979? There must be a pruice to pay for the host country when they allow a diplomatic mission to be attacked. The host country is responsible for the extrenal security of diplomatic missions.

I have the impression that you have bought into the slogans of FOX
news that anyone not with Bush policy is a coward (France, Germany and
e.t.c).

Actually, I've had a pretty low opinion of the Europeans since the 1980s. When they were spending all their time protesting Reagan, while he was busily saving their asses.

Europe has much more extremist muslims because it has much more
muslims.

Actually, it doesn't. The UK and the US both have about 3% Muslim populations. I believe France is the only country in Europe witha large Muslim population.

That is because of its vicinity to muslim countries and
historical reasons (Many countries are colonial powers with big
population from their former colonies like pakistanis in England).

Englandf has quite a large Indian Hindu population. Muslim Pakistanis? Not so much. And Europe's proximity and history with Muslims would not be likely to encourage European countries to encouarge Muslim immigration, wouldn't you say? It's not like that proximity has led to a GOOD history, right?

That
would be like me sayig US has much more south american gangsters. Well
it is because there are more South Americans living in USA.

No, we don't ahve many South Americans living in the US. We have a lot of Mexicans. mexico is in North America :)

I think European countries (or all rich countries) should be more
active in helping poor and undevelopded countries in developing,

Shoudln't tehy start at home? Western Europe has Eastern Europe to worry about, right? The US has Latin America.

not by
money but with learning howto build up democracy. 

Now you are the one who sounds like a neocon :)

I'm all for the world's great democracies helping to promote democracy where it is wanted. But I am absolutely opposed to attempts to install democracy at gunpoint.

One good way is
Grameen bank started by nobel prize winner Muhammad Yunus and now
supported by some europeans and americans.

I remember raeding about that. Seems like a great idea! But it was an effort started locally, and supported by the outside.

I know they do this kind of work but it need to be much more.

What specifically in the middle east would you say has been a successful effort at promoting democracy?

The other solution would be doing what Bush has done.

Well, I don't support what Bush has done. But unlike a lot of other people, I'm not claiming I know what the solution is. Theer aren't any success stories in the ME yet, are there? So there aren't any good examples to follow.

Programmer Craig

On contrary to your beleifs EU does not have a Foreign policy power. This is because its members often are at odds with each other on foreign policy. For example on the Iraq war Spain, GB and Denmark agreed with USA but most other EU countries did not. This leads to a common foreing policy being impossible.

I think even an american embassy was burnt some times a go (Serbia). If the government of the country is behind this then it can be taken as an act of war, but otherwise what can be done? Should USA have attacked Serbia because of the burning? What would have been the outcome of the attack?

I have the impression that you have bought into the slogans of FOX news that anyone not with Bush policy is a coward (France, Germany and e.t.c). Europe has much more extremist muslims because it has much more muslims. That is because of its vicinity to muslim countries and historical reasons (Many countries are colonial powers with big population from their former colonies like pakistanis in England). That would be like me sayig US has much more south american gangsters. Well it is because there are more South Americans living in USA.

I think European countries (or all rich countries) should be more active in helping poor and undevelopded countries in developing, not by money but with learning howto build up democracy. One good way is Grameen bank started by nobel prize winner Muhammad Yunus and now supported by some europeans and americans.

I know they do this kind of work but it need to be much more.

The other solution would be doing what Bush has done.

/Bidar bash ke ma bekhabim

135

The only thing that she hasn't lied about is; being a woman.
Her life story is a total lie; from experiencing civil war to being a rape victim, forced marriage, etc.

Well, you seem to be telling some lies yourself right now! And teh things she is accused of lying about by the Dutch, she had already admitted in 2002 and were all public knowlegde. The Dutch didn't care until they decided to eject her all of a sudden. They were fine with the lies, while they found her to be useful.

Are you claiming all teh Iranians on thiswebsite who fled Iran were completely honest on their paperwork? What about all the IRI agents? lol.

Because of her lies, Dutch Immigration office deployed a tougher
investigation on refugees cases from Somalia and as the result, lots of
real political refugees were deported "mistakenly" and landed in prison
back home!

Really? Is that the only reason? It has nothing to do with skyrocketing violent crime rates?

If it wasn't for her lies, Theo van Gogh was alive now - a Dutch contemporary and controversial artist; A Vincent descendant.

That's the best part of all. It's his fault for getting murdered, eh? Or, rather, her fault for getting him murdered. Not the fault of the murderer at all, is it?

LIE RULES !

The only thing that she hasn't lied about is; being a woman.
Her life story is a total lie; from experiencing civil war to being a rape victim, forced marriage, etc.
Because of her lies, Dutch Immigration office deployed a tougher investigation on refugees cases from Somalia and as the result, lots of real political refugees were deported "mistakenly" and landed in prison back home!
If it wasn't for her lies, Theo van Gogh was alive now - a Dutch contemporary and controversial artist; A Vincent descendant.
Please check your facts thoroughly, prior to publishing such complimentary article on a charlatan.

Why people keep saying; Submission II is her film? Well, it isn't, It is van Gogh's film.
How many of you ever heard; ET, a Melissa Mathison's film?

And, the AEI? What's so special about it? Other than collecting information; from us; about us; which will be used most definitely against us.
Espionage in modern form: agents in the illusion of being a Think Tank, unconsciously performing domestically but at international level due to their background, with no hassle around i.e. contras, tailing, execution, bla bla ... so, no worries, it's safe and cheap, which btw matches "efficiency" characteristic of a non-non-profit enterprise!
Just browse the web and find out who were once members of this institute.

WE, are the real deal CONTRADICTIONS.

choghok

Europe is not equal to European Union. European Union is like Nafta. It
does not have any foreign-policy power nor military power.

I disagree. NAFTA is strictly a trade alliance. The EU is much more than that. It is a political union. It odes have foreign-policy power, and it will have military power at some point in the future. probably when NATO becomes compeltely irrelevant. There are already plans in the works.

You are right that European countries did not say anything in the
matter, and it is not their place to say anything. That is why I said
US media and not US government earlier.

Of course it was "their place" to get involved! Freedom of the press is the LAW in Europe. Embassies were burned, people were killed, Arab governments put a variety of diplomatic sanctions in place in order to try to extarct concessions on a matter that is LAW in those countries. And not just law, Freedom of the Press is considered a human right.

The governments of Europe should have gotten involved. Absolutely. But they didn't. Thus insuring that they will be subjected to the same treatement by teh muslim world again, and again. Until they eventually grow tired of it. And we all know what Europeans do when they have a religious or ethnic problem that has become a major annoyance for them. Don't we?

If the Danish government would have taken side of the paper more
than allowing it print the caricatures it would be as if government
decided what should be printed in the papers.

Nope. That's not the issue. it's not taking "sides" - it's an issue of law, and whether foreign powers can be allowed to actively interfere in internal legal matters of a sovereign state.

And it did not take
complaining countries side since it would break the laws of Denmark.
The Laws of free speech.

What part of "embassies were burned" did you not understand? :P

KSA and Libya broke diplomatic ties with Denmark, as i recall. 

How about the riots which killed so many people?

You think that falls under free speech? What kind of free speech is that? I'm not familiar with it.

They just made it clear to the  complaining countries that they did
not supported the printing or any other offensive act on any religion,
but they would not do anything against it since it is totally legal to
print anything (almost).

What they should have done, was retaliate (all of the EU) against the governments that stood by and allowed embassies to be burned, and most particularly against thsoe countries that tried to use diplomatic extortion. That kind of aggression has been tolerated for far too long... and it was tolerated, yet again, in the cartoon crisis. 

Your point about American media offending muslims is not valid here
since I talk about standing up for freedom of thought and speech and
not offending someone.

I already told you, I think it is a non-issue in teh US. That kind of crap isn't going to fly, here. The Europeans need to stand up for themselves. Or not. They like to style themselves as the role models for the rest of the world, with their liberal ideals and their (newfound) "respect" for human rights. Let them walk it the way they talk it. If they keep backpedalling, the backlash in Europe is going to be ferocious when it eventually comes.

It is very alarming that not even one US paper printed these
caricatures as part of solidarity act. It shows the lack of pluralism
in the US media. They could be very well controled.

You don't live in the US, do you? :)

You should also think about how the agressive (noncoward) policy of
Bush administration has worked killing tens of thousands if not more
civilians and thus breeding muslim extremists in a country that used to
be secular (Iraq).

Yes. And isn't it odd, that there are so many MORE Muslim extremists in Europe, than there are in the US? :P

American politics in the middle east is always going to fail since
it is made for Israels best and not USA. It will also fail since it is
very short sighted (supporting Saddam, Talibans, Mubarak and all other
tyrants to get the oil cheap and fast).

US policy in teh ME may fail. But nobodies policy has ever worked anyway, so what difference does it make? It's not like their is some magic formula that the US is ignoring. 

I do not support the European inactivity either. They should be more
involved in bringing peace and prosperity to the region but not the
American kind.

Why? Why is it the responsiblity of Europeans to bring peace and prosperity to the middle east? That's such a bizarre concept, I don't even have any frame of reeference for it. Should't teh Europeans be trying to bring peace and prosperity to Europe? And isn't it the job of people in teh middle East to seek tehir own peace and prosperity?

P.S I think it is very good that you visit these sites and that
people like you and me meet and discuss since It widens both our
verizons and help to bring understanding and peace.

Thanks! I think so too! I've learned a lot the last 4 or 5 years, since I've been reading blogs and forums :)