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A Bewildered Conscience Blindly Groping for Clarity : Dissent is the Only Response to Manufactured Realities
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On Christian Zionism
16-Aug-2008
Rapture and Apocalypse: How Real is the Evangelical Hold on U.S. Foreign Policy?
That religion plays a prominent role in American politics is undeniable. The pollsters at the Pew Research Center have found that 85% of Americans regard religion as an important part of their lives. Moreover, the separation of religion from the political sphere doesn’t feature highly on their list of priorities. In the same set of polls, 70% of Americans stated they desire their President to be a person of faith.
Several presidents have been unabashed in their use of religious nomenclature, symbolism and allusion. Edifying homilies, packed with open professions of faith by Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan and more recently George W. Bush were inveterate features of their respective presidencies. Though the separation of church and state remains the writ of the land, recent decades have seen a resurgence in religiosity and, to use a somewhat oxymoronic phrase, “postmodern-revival” of the role of religion in public life, whereby ancient symbols are refashioned and packaged to suit contemporary needs and agendas. An unrepresentative, but powerful coalition of groups have since the eighties been aggressively pursuing their politico-theological program with a hitherto unparalleled vigor. Though the situation is hardly as alarming as some commentators would have us believe, there is little doubt that the Christian Evangelical movement has emerged as a powerful and highly influential group with a wish-list they expect their political representatives to translate into policy.
Leaders of this movement include the late Jerry Falwell, Gary Bauer, Pat Robertson and John Hagee, and politicians such as former House Majority Leaders Tom DeLay (R-TX) and Richard Armey (R-TX), and Senator James Inhofe (R-K). The growing pervasiveness and political tenor of televangelism, e-vangelism (internet-vangelism) and religious activism have been part and parcel of the aforementioned trend and its recent buoyancy. The pervasive influence of the Christian Right is by no means a figment of “liberal America’s” imagination. In fact it’s very real, with some experts contending the provenance of American exceptionalism and unilateralism is to be found in Evangelism and its political cognates. For example, Professor Duane Oldfield of Knox College has argued that:
“Although the Christian right's unilateralism is not new, its proximity to power is. Three developments have helped make the Christian right a significant player in U.S. foreign policy: the election of a president with close ties to the movement, the growth of the Christian right's grassroots organizational strength, and the development of an alliance with neoconservatives, who have come to play a crucial role in the present administration.”
An important subset of the politically-minded Christian Right are the so-called Christian Zionists. The origins of Christian Zionism reside in the theology of dispensationalism which emerged in nineteenth century England, largely through the efforts of Anglican ministers Louis Way and John Nelson Darby. Dispensationalism constitutes a form of premillenarianism which asserts that the world will experience an era of turmoil, hardship and catastrophe before Christ returns.
The Evangelist community’s theological predilections have precipitated foreign policy preferences consisting in unerring support for Israel and a tendency to view the Bush administration’s “war on terror” as a war against Islam. Pastor John Hagee, for instance has unapologetically proclaimed that, “We support Israel because all other nations were created by an act of men, but Israel was created by an act of God!”
The Iraq War is seen as integral to a Manichean struggle of “good versus evil” and despite the precipitous decline in support for the war amongst the American public, Christian Zionists remain stalwart supporters of the Bush administration’s Babylonian adventure, viewing it through the prism of a cosmic and eschatological struggle. Attitudes toward other religions and Islam in particular have been characterized by prejudice, falsehood and misconception. Surveys taken by the Pew Forum (PDF), furthermore, show that of all Americans, Evangelicals have the most negative and derogatory views of Islam and Muslims. Reverend Franklin Graham, a leading Evangelist created a stir when after the 9/11 attacks he infamously claimed that Islam was a "very evil and a very wicked religion."
The Christian Zionists support for Israel is a curious and uneasy one. Evangelist support for Israel first really gathered pace after the Six Day War (1967), in which Israel single-handedly defeated the armies of Jordan, Egypt and Syria and occupied East Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza. These events were interpreted as a sign that the realization of Old and New Testament prophecy was in the offing.
Ever since, a slew of Christian Zionist groups have been extremely vocal in their support of the Jewish state and the settlement enterprise, even raising funds to expedite settlement expansion. Their belief that God has promised Israel to the Jews, and the Jews alone has meant that they are fundamentally at odds with the international consensus which advocates a two-state solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict.
The reason why such an alliance might be deemed uneasy and fraught with contradictions is because dispensationalist theology doesn’t envisage a pleasant fate for the Jews. Dispensationalist theology assures us that when the end-of-times are upon us that the Jews, who are crudely typecast in the Evangelicals’ literalist Biblical narrative, will either convert to Christianity or die! Hence, despite their staunch and unreserved support for Israel, critics suggest that such support only thinly veils a deep-seated brand of anti-Semitism.
This rather strange marriage of convenience is perhaps best exemplified in the person of Pastor John Hagee, whose endorsement was wholeheartedly embraced by Republican presidential nominee, John McCain, earlier this year. Despite being founder of lobbying organization Christians United for Israel (CUFI), he has been widely accused of anti-Semitism. In his 2006 book Jerusalem Countdown Hagee argues that:
"It was the disobedience and rebellion of the Jews, God's chosen people, to their covenantal responsibility to serve only the one true God, Jehovah, that gave rise to the opposition and persecution that they experienced beginning in Canaan and continuing to this very day..."
Hagee effectively puts down thousands of years of persecution, which culminated in the Judaeocide and near-destruction of European Jewry, to what he perceives as the Jews disobedience and deviance from the anointed path of Hagee’s infinitely vengeful God. Despite such utterances, prominent figures in the American-Jewish community such as Abraham Foxman, chairman of the Anti-Demfamation League (ADL), have been quick to jump to Hagee and the equally offensive pronouncements of other Evangelical leaders’ defense. In the words of Foxman, “There is a role for him…because of his support for Israel.”
The Evangelicals have also been jockeying for broadening the present conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan to Iran. Hagee’s CUFI has been zealously pushing the message of “support-Israel-bomb-Iran”, urging Congress to follow suit and has told his followers that a US strike on Tehran may initiate the sequence of apocalyptic events related in Ezekiel 38 and 39. In Jerusalem Countdown he goes so far as to argue that “The coming nuclear showdown with Iran is a certainty”.
Such dogma obviously leaves no room for negotiation or painstaking diplomacy. It’s not merely the belief that the end-of-days is upon us which must been seen off, but that dangerous fantasy that Armageddon must be instigated and provoked via a series of explosive and catastrophic events. Apart from being dangerous in and of themselves, such ideas, even in infinitesimal quantities can act as an damning impediments in the pursuit of peaceful solutions to what are after all mundane geopolitical issues.
There is however consensus amongst experts that the Christian Evangelical movement cannot be viewed as a monolith. Though there are of course ideological and philosophical commonalities which bind them together, there are also issues which divide them such as global warming and HIV/AIDS.
There is also the trenchant counterargument that despite appearances, the American policy elite’s support for Israel and the neocon agenda in pursuit of American hegemony exist independently of Evangelical lobbying efforts, and on the contrary remain entirely contingent on geo-strategic considerations. Well-known advocates of a position somewhat analogous to this are Noam Chomsky of MIT and Norman G. Finkelstein, both of whom take issue with the thesis proposed in John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt’s, The Israel Lobby i.e. that it is the lobby and its activities on Capitol Hill which are the key factor capable of explaining American policy toward Israel and the broader Middle East. To oversimplify somewhat, they argue that when all is said and done, it is America’s geo-strategic interests which take precedence over all else and thereby go on to determine policy, with ideology, theology and the lobby in the final instance falling by the wayside, playing only the most negligible of roles. Evangelicals rather have been cast in the role of “useful idiots” mobilizing their followers on the basis of hollow campaign promises, dutifully shepherding their flocks to the ballot box.
There is little doubt however that those politically-active Evangelicals whose world-view and activities we have here briefly attempted to explicate, will be a force to be reckoned with for the foreseeable future; further confirmed by the fact that the first general-election meeting between Obama and McCain will not be taking place in a university auditorium, with news anchors as moderators, but in the unorthodox locale of an Evangelical mega-church, overseen by a southern Baptist pastor. The presidential hopefuls may well find themselves compelled to indulge in catechism as opposed to the usual interrogatory welter of questions. Thus despite various mitigating factors worthy of greater exploration, there is little doubt that analysts and observers of American foreign policy will be struggling to assess the role of Christian Evangelicals for some time to come.
© Sadegh Kabeer
If possible try check out the short documentary, Pastor John Hagee: A Preoccupation with the Jews, by jewsonfirst.org...
URL: //www.jewsonfirst.org >
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Mr Kashani
by IRANdokht on Mon Aug 18, 2008 03:11 PM PDTThank you for clarification of your points. I was really disappointed thinking that you might be advocating a military attack on Iran just based on your feelings for the IRI regime.
It just amazes me that you and PC (who is a strong advocate of military attack) saw my 1953 comment the same way and misunderstood the reasoning behind the timeline.
I assure you that if Iran was not in the political situation that it was in during the years prior to 79, Khomeini or any other mullah would not have enjoyed the support of all the people including the Jebhe Melli and the left. That was the situation created by the coup of 28-mordad which is a documented CIA coup.
I hope I was clearer this time.
IRANdokht
Kashani "you're not fooling
by sadegh on Mon Aug 18, 2008 03:04 PM PDTKashani "you're not fooling anyone!!!" lol...
Ba Arezu-ye Movafaghiat, Sadegh
Sadegh, wow! I hope all
by Farhad Kashani on Mon Aug 18, 2008 02:48 PM PDTSadegh, wow! I hope all audiences are watching that you told me that I need to get a show with Fox news first, and your calling me a “hypocrite”! Amazing, please continue showing your true face!
So anyone who disagrees with you is part of Fox news?
Irandokht, I don’t call
by Farhad Kashani on Mon Aug 18, 2008 02:45 PM PDTIrandokht, I don’t call anyone dumb, but 1- If someone insults me, I will defend myself 2- I do say that an argument is dumb. For example, when the IRI says we don’t care about human rights, rather, we have our own Islamic human rights, well, that’s dumb to me.
The 1953 coup was an Iranian coup, executed and planned by the monarchists. U.S role was limited and insignificant. That being said, there are two things to consider:1- many countries had political turmoil and coups in their past, there is no way in hell, that someone can claim that still after close to half century, we, as people, can’t get it together now. No one can claim we act as we act now because of the coup in 1953 and now its 2008. That just doesn’t make sense. Remember, the 1979 revolution, put us back on the road to democracy, until, very briefly after the fall of monarchy, some fascist uneducated thugs hijacked it and created the Islamic regime that took us back way back before 1953.
2- What the regime is doing has nothing to do with the 1953 coup. The regime itself says that, they don’t give a rats a@@ about Mosadgh. They don’t even talk about Mosadegh. They say there is only one reason for the revolution, Islam. So please don’t mix up the two.
When I say so what, I mean the U.S government is well aware that bombing Iran and killing innocent people won’t help Iranians remove the regime. That’s why we haven’t been bombed yet. They are well aware that no Iranian approves of a U.S attack. However, what I’ve been always saying is tat the provocation of the U.S and Israel by the Iranian regime is reaching a point that is just, and I hope I’m wrong, even U.S patience is running out. I’m saying lets act now, fight the regime before war is inflicted on Iran.
Irandokht, aziz, I never call anyone names. But I damn sure defend myself, and the reason is, I know these people’s tactics. The reason they use tough language and insult people is to intimidate them. We know all their tricks. Showing kindness to them is a sign of weakness. They don’t understand civility and exchange of ideas. To them, that’s a” Western” concept. They intimidated you to silence you. And that trick is not gonna work anymore.
It's truly amazing, even
by sadegh on Mon Aug 18, 2008 02:46 PM PDTIt's truly amazing, even you're 'compliments' (in this case to Mammad) are back-handed slaps in the face...'I'll be the bigger person'...as you guys over there in the states say 'get over yourself already' Kashani...
Ba Arezu-ye Movafaghiat, Sadegh
IRANdokht
by programmer craig on Mon Aug 18, 2008 02:44 PM PDTyou asked: Who started it? I'd say 55 years ago CIA takes precedence to 30 years ago Khomeini, don't you?
Are you seriously trying to claim Khomeini gave a rats ass about Mossadegh? Or his communist supporters? Can you explain this? I've seen Iranians implying that sort of causality before, but I've never seen anyone try to connect the dots... as far as I can tell, there are no dots to connect. Mossadegh gets trotted out by Iranian nationalists to condemn the US. There doens't seem to be any more to say about 1953 other than "US bad, Britain bad". That doesn't mean "IRI good". Khomeini would have had Mossadegh exeuctued in 1978.
OMG I've been an IRI Agent all Along - THANKS KASHANI (SARCASM!)
by sadegh on Mon Aug 18, 2008 02:39 PM PDTOMG...such a sophisticated level of debate...how will I contain myself...Kashani just be quite please and stop embarrassing yourself; it is pathetic...
Kashani the fascist relies on the same inqusitorial methods as the mullahs i.e. "you disagree with me" ERGO "you must be a traitor in the pay of the other side." Isn't that exactly the same despicable technique currently being used by the IRI against dissidents?!!!! i.e. anyone who opposes them must therefore be in the pay of the Americans or Israelis or whoever...DISGUSTING!!!
Kashani, that was a rhetorical question...as for your rambling chert-o-pert response to Q...does your hypocrisy have no bounds? You're one of the rudest, most ignorant and most aggressive on the whole of Iranian.com (scratch that, that I've ever had the misfortune of coming across)!!! Don't make me laugh with you hollow entreaties for '"civility"...you don't even know the meaning of the word...
Ba Arezu-ye Movafaghiat, Sadegh
sadegh, how much was the
by Farhad Kashani on Mon Aug 18, 2008 02:28 PM PDTsadegh, how much was the last paycheck you got from Keyhan newspaper in Tehran for promoting their propaganda?
Mammad, only a leftist will
by Farhad Kashani on Mon Aug 18, 2008 02:26 PM PDTMammad, only a leftist will claim there has not been a positive aspect of U.S foreign policy since 1945. That’s actually the period with the most positive outcomes of U.S foreign policy. It’ll take a book to tell’em all, however, I’m gonna just that the obvious ones which is undeniable by the rest of the world:
- U.S is a pioneer in establishing the U.N, the best humans have ever gotten to have a unified world government where hundreds, if not thousands of conflicts have been resolved through it. U.S is the biggest contributor to the U.N (The same “Christian Zionists’ tax money), and even when it established the U.N, it had the decency to give veto power to its arch enemies, USSR. The reason is did that because it cared about a balanced world where peace can be achieved?
- U.S, was the biggest, if not the sole, contributor the defeat of communism, a system that has been despised by the vast majority of the world. Just ask the Eastern Europeans and others about the level of appreciation they have in that regards for the U.S. By defeating communism, the U.S help hundreds of millions of people achieve democracy and a better future.
- U.S, by far, is the biggest contributor of foreign aid to the world. It contributes billions to poor, sick people and is a huge contributor to NGOs around the world who try a make a difference in countries that abuse human rights. Most Iranian student leaders who are fiercely fighting the fascist regime in Iran came to the U.S to seek assistance. No one of them is asking the U.S to bomb Iran, and U.S is well aware that almost all Iranians oppose a war against our people.
- Muslims related: The U.S, this “Christian Zionist” country, intervened and gave life to stop genocide of Muslims by the real Christian fundamentalist during the Balkan war. The leftists media, the college professors elite, the leftist groups never mention a single word about this U.S intervention.
I’ll stop there.
Are those the same “unlighted” Europeans who almost elected Jean Mary Lopen who has clear anti immigrant, pro Christianity, ultra nationalist beliefs? Hmm?? In America, when you even ask for tougher borders, they call you “anti immigrant”, let alone elect you! Bush himself proposed the most comprehensive immigration bill which took into consideration the immigrants’ status. The same “enlighten” ones who are electing neo Nazis in Germany to local offices, and the same “enlighten” ones who elected Berlusconi who’s sending Army into the cities to fight immigrants? Where’ your logic man? As much as the leftist media and college elite bashed Bush, at the same rate, most Western Europeans elected pro America pro Bush leaders after the Iraq war. Merkel, Sarkozy, Berlusconi, Blair.
Finally, like I told you before, I don’t have a problem with anyone being a leftist or a right winger. What I don’t accept is those leftists descise as “peace activists” and other labels, to bash Iran and U.S, and apologize for fascists like Putin and Khamenei and Chavez and others. Is it too much to ask to say please come out and say who you really are?
I don’t attack people, I attack their arguments, just like I have no problem with people attacking my argument. But if someone attacks me and bashes me, I have all the right to defend myself, and I will do that, don’t you agree?
I always said, out of all the leftist I talked to on this site, you’re one, if not, the most civilized. I disagree with most of what you say, but I appreciate the decent level of civility you show (Although I believe you don’t believe that about me, but its OK!, I’ll be the better person!). So hopefully we can have a civilized exchange of ideas in the future.
Kashani you really need to
by sadegh on Mon Aug 18, 2008 02:29 PM PDTKashani you really need to start your own O'Reilly-type show...who knows, maybe Fox will give you a gig...but you'll need a catchphrase...hmmmmm...what could it be...
"YOU'RE NO FOOLING ANYONE!!!'
I mean how many times more do we have to hear you repeat the same obnoxious phrase...at least with O'Reilly one can change the channel...
Ba Arezu-ye Movafaghiat, Sadegh
Mr Kashani
by IRANdokht on Mon Aug 18, 2008 02:04 PM PDTSure, some Americans might get upset enough to make claims such as ets bomb Iran. So what? What we need to look at is who started all this? I don’t even think you thought about that even once in your life. WHO SARTED ALL THIS? The answer is undoubtedly Khomeini and his regime and his fundamentalist legacy.
A few things in your response is troublesome to me. But I won't cover them all, lets just discuss the passage quoted above:
It sure seems like you truly believe in what you're saying, one can tell that by your tone but that is no reason for calling people dumb!
you asked: Who started it? I'd say 55 years ago CIA takes precedence to 30 years ago Khomeini, don't you?
(Before you start calling me names: I am not defending khomeini! I am talking about "starting" it)
You said: of course some people say lets bomb Iran so what!
I'd ask you: what do you mean by "so what"?
How can you say "so what" about anyone who desires to bomb Iran? how can you justify the death and the destruction the bombing would bring? Just because you blame Khomeini, people in Iran have to be bombed and you're supporting that?
IRANdokht
Q, you are one of the most
by Farhad Kashani on Mon Aug 18, 2008 01:50 PM PDTQ, you are one of the most uncivilized Iranians I had ever discussed politics with. Let me give you an advice, you’re not fooling anyone, and the reason for that is, because I have a memory like you won’t believe. I remember most things I hear and read. And I don’t forget the vicious, savagery you showed in responding to couple of my posting by all kinds of names and calling whoever agreed with me with the same names. Yes, you and your idol, the IRI regime who you apologize for, need a listen in civility, and Iranian people will give you that listen, very soon. Mark my word.
There are many people with your confused logic who I talk with, but at least they have the decency to show civility. What I noticed is those ones may be anti American and anti democratic principles, but like most Iranians, they don’t want the Iranian regime. So that the difference, the more you get close to the regime, the more barbaric like them you become. Guess what, you met your match, not only we don’t get intimated, but, we hit back hard.
That’s not even saying how absurd and ridicules your claims are (like the ones you said “Khamanei is indirectly elected”). Yeah, I don’t forget things.
Damn sure I care about America and damn sure I am against religious fundamentalists. But I’m as much against the absurd argument that the world was fine, and everything was OK, and the regime was gracing us with its infinite care about us and our rights, and it wasn’t at all promoting terrorism world, and suddenly, a union of “Christians” and “AIPAC” started the feud with Iran. That’s the dumbest thing I heard in my life. Sure, some Americans might get upset enough to make claims such as ets bomb Iran. So what? What we need to look at is who started all this? I don’t even think you thought about that even once in your life. WHO SARTED ALL THIS? The answer is undoubtedly Khomeini and his regime and his fundamentalist legacy.
Dear Mammad
by IRANdokht on Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:16 AM PDTBy your definition, I guess I am a leftist too, so are a lot of liberal progressive people I know:
Left means progress; left means social justice; left means
anti-exploitation; left means anti-imperialism; left means
anti-colonialism, whether it is of military type (Iraq, Afghanistan,
etc.), or economical type (NAFTA). Left means being against Iraq's
invasion; left means being against sanction and military attacks on
Iran.
All this time I had no idea that I could be a leftist!
Very clear as always and right to the point.
Whether I agree with all your views or not, your knowledge, passion and the class you show in your writing commands respect.
I just can't figure out why do you bother with certain individuals here who tend to turn every discussion into personal attacks and insults?
Best Regards,
IRANdokht
Let's see
by Mammad on Mon Aug 18, 2008 07:34 AM PDTOn August 18, 2008:
Let's see how many people around the world are of the "kiss U.S. back" type, and how many despise what American foreign policy has done to the world since 1945. There is not a single positive achievement for that policy over that period.
Let's see how Bush and his criminal gang are viewed in the educated, sophisticated, enlightened, advanced Western Europe (or even here in the U.S., just look at his poll numbers), not by imaginary numbers, or according to what I say, but by poll after poll after poll taken there. Google search it for yourself.
Yes, I am a leftist, FK, I have declared it, and am absolutely, positively proud of it. We either should not believe in something, or if we claim we do, we should have the courage to stand by it, even if people like you assult us, attack us, attribute unfounded things to us, accuse us, insult us. I can say no one has been attacked, abused, and assulted more than I in this column by people like you, but I believe in what I write about, which is why I am still here.
Left means progress; left means social justice; left means ati-exploitation; left means anti-imperialism; left means anti-colonialism, whether it is of military type (Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.), or economical type (NAFTA). Left means being against Iraq's invasion; left means being against sanction and military attacks on Iran.
But, I have unequivocally declared who I am. How about you FK: You are to the right of the right-wingers in the US, which is saying something, but refuse to see yourself in the mirror.
Sadegh, I, and people like us do not live in a bubble, but in reality. But, as I said, even if we do, the bubble can burst. How about you? You live in a black hole of information, disconnected from reality forever. More importantly, as physicists have shown, any information is crushed in a black hole, which is precisely the way you act.
Mammad
PG and others...
by sadegh on Mon Aug 18, 2008 06:03 AM PDTWhere do I say secularism in the US is in danger???????? And no point to I argue or assert such a thing...To say that a small group of politically active Christian evangelicals have some influence on US foreign policy and policy makes is not equivalent to saying that secularism is in danger. And I never assert any such thing so your question is entirely redundant.
I say there has been an increase in religiosity (a trend which cuts across all the major religions)!!!
Please read my first long response to Kashani....FOR THE MILLIONTH TIME FOR ALL THE PEOPLE WHO WISH TO CRITICIZE ME BUT HAVEN'T EVEN BOTHERED TO READ THE ARTICLE...I was examining the influence of a small cadre of evangelicals (I repeat small cadre of evangelicals, not all evangelicals) on US FOREIGN POLICY...I DO NOT TALK ABOUT ANY DOMESTIC ISSUES...
So PG, I must ask, can you even read??? Seriously, are you that desperate to score points that you need to create false dichotomies and distinctions which are of no concern to the subject matter in question? I am not replying to any more stupid accusations; please read my first lengthy answer to Kashani...
Q: thanks for the vid.
Anonymous Observer: thanks for the kind words...
Sarzamine Man: You're simply wrong...I have never "bashed" Jews or Christians...You don't have a clue what you are talking about...I have criticized Israeli policies which is my right to do...And this is the first time I have even addressed the question of Christian politicized evangelism in a foreign policy context...For the millionth time, I never generalize and never take the actions of a minority - a small band of fanatics - as representative of the majority. The overwhelming majority of Jews, Christians and Muslims want to live in peace. In fact, a Christian and very pious gentleman congratulated me on the essay after reading it on another venue so again you're simple dead-wrong.
Furthermore, I can write about whatever I choose, that is of no one's concern. Very simple, if you don't like it, don't read it.
Finally, I have criticized the IRI on many occasions. So again, you're simply dead-wrong. I have actually denounced it as theocratic tyranny on many occasions and take a position fairly close to that of Abbas Milani in the video which was posted on this site last night.
Ba Arezu-ye Movafaghiat, Sadegh
misleading
by programmer craig on Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:12 AM PDTMoreover, the separation of religion from the political sphere doesn’t
feature highly on their list of priorities. In the same set of polls,
70% of Americans stated they desire their President to be a person of
faith.
What does a Christian's desire to have a Christian President have to do with secularism? Do you not understand what the word means? Or are you deliberately trying to mislead people? Seperation of Church and state does not mean that somebody should be an atheist to serve in government, you know...
I am seriosuly curious as to whether or not you just don't grasp the concept, or wheher you are being intellectually dishonest. Can you explain in your own words what "secular" means to you?
Agree with FK
by Sarzamine man (not verified) on Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:48 PM PDTI agree with FK completely, it is ok to discuss about some facts and stats as Sadegh did in this article, its educational however the problem might not be with article but the fact that Sadegh as an Iranian and one who claim to have no religion can only bash Jews and American all the time in this website and make Muslim the most innocent people who have been discriminated by the west. You know sometimes even the criminal akhonds in Iran make some true facts and stats which are correct but why people do not like to hear it from them is because THEY ARE MORE CRIMINAL than others, as for Mr Sadegh, the fact that he/she can only talk about the negative impact of the west, American, criticizing Christian and Jews only in this website, it is not very hard for reader to figure out that he is fooling people, just think about it, this is the only way to fool Iranian who live outside of Iran(inside Iran is different, you can fool people in many other ways as akhonds are doing already), since Iranian outside are 99% against this brutal regime in Iran, one can't offer them money, position or talk about the good akhonds have done therefore the only way is to make the world especially those who oppose the regime in Iran look bad and without making themselves look bad or supporter of IR, they can achieve the same goal as akhonds do inside of Iran, otherwise it should have been opposite, the first priority for us must be standing in front of real criminal in our country, criticizing Islam for cutting hands of our youth, stoning our women to death and many other things, then when we achieved our freedom, we can go ahead and call other nation stupid.
My view of America
by AmirAshkan Pishroo on Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:16 PM PDTI take American experiment as an ongoing project, a work in progress, a nation in making, whose greatness remains to be achieved.
My view of America is somewhat similar to that of Mr kashani's.
However, I am not ready to view any refusal to accept the American magisterium and unilateralism as a sign of anti-Americanism.
Nicely Done
by Anonymous Observer (not verified) on Sun Aug 17, 2008 09:07 PM PDTGood analysis and well written. Enjoyed reading it. I disagree with some of your points (which I am too tired to mention) but overall you set forth a pretty rational basis for your views, and a great deal of what you say is true. Thanks, as always, for a great job!
Best video on the subject
by Q on Sun Aug 17, 2008 08:52 PM PDTis this one by Max Blumenthal. I suggest you all watch it really carefully.
These groups are powerful. That's why high level politicians including McCain kisses their behind and even Obama tries not to piss them off.
Kashani,
You are one of the absolute worst when it comes to baseless accusations, frivolous charges and "fascism" as practiced when you accuse random people you don't agree with as being "islamist" or "apologist".
No one needs to hear a lecture from you on civilized discourse.
You say you "critique" US foreign policy? You care about America? This same "Christian Zionist" America wants to Bomb Iran (watch the video). We all know that's not good for both America and Iran. You also claim to be against religious fundementalism.
Do you still continue to defend these violent right wing, powerful, fundementalists, who are AGAINST the interests of Americans/
These IRI apologists and
by Farhad Kashani on Sun Aug 17, 2008 07:53 PM PDTThese IRI apologists and anti Americans think they can actually fool people! However, the more these people call you names and bash you, the more assurance it gives me that point is valid.
- What is anti Americanism? Obviously no one calls for the annihilation of America, not even Khomeini or Bin Laden did. But if you bash every, and I mean every, aspect of American foreign policy, most aspects of American domestic policy, without giving credit to anything this country has done, and when you bash its people like you did in this article, without resorting to logic, facts or figures, that does not make you pro America, does it? The thing is these close minded fascists think people don’t know their tricks. Khomeini always use to say “We don’t have problem with the American people”, but he bashed every aspect of American people’s life, calling them “immoral”, and “Kafar”, and he burned the American flag, which represents America, not an American president, among numerous other things that he started that had nothing to do with American policy, but rather, with American culture. He never made a clear distinction between people and government, because he really didn’t want to, it’s a mafia like tactic they use. If you confront them, they say, we’re not anti America, but in reality, they do every anti American action you can think of.
- Another Mafia tactic they use is, they say they’re not anti American, but what really mean is they’re not anti – an America that they want it to be. So, they believe that America should be they want it to be, then, obviously, they won’t be anti American then. They do not approve of what America is today.
- America, in its short existence has done so much achievements in human rights, promoting peace, promoting liberal humane values, that most, if not all, countries around the world can only dream of. This is the same America where they have “ Christian Zionists” which saved Muslim lives in Bosnia when no Muslim country had the decency to step up. This is the same America with its “Christian Zionists”, which the same old “Christian Zionists” citizens, helped Muslim Indonesian victims of Tsunami, more than all Islamic countries combined.
- I’m a critique of U.S foreign policy, not you; you’re an anti American. I disagreed with the Iraq war; disagree with U.S support for Israel, among other things. There is a clear line between the two.
- Just the fact that you think or claim, that I called all Muslims barbaric shows how deeply confused and cold hearted you are. Its an absolute disgrace to put words in my mouth, I never claimed such thing. However, let me ask you, how much do you really know about how life is in Islamic countries, and how people think? In how many Islamic countries did you live? How many non- Iranian Muslims have you met and talked to? How much traveling have you done in Islamic countries?
Who are you trying to fool?
I don't believe someone can
by sadegh on Sun Aug 17, 2008 05:32 PM PDTI don't believe someone can seriously read my essay on Obama and the up and coming presidential race that I wrote back in April and accuse me of anti-Americanism...such accusations as I have already said are baseless and nothing but a sign of desperation...
//iranian.com/main/2008/citizen-obama
Ba Arezu-ye Movafaghiat, Sadegh
Thank you AmirAshkan...I am
by sadegh on Sun Aug 17, 2008 05:26 PM PDTThank you AmirAshkan...I am not anti-American and never have been - I never generalize about a people or even belief system unlike FK who believes and argues that all Muslims are criminal and monstrous barbarians - it's funny how the essentialists and bigots always accuse the tolerant of being what they are themselves - a very Rovian/Machiavellian tactic - attack your opponents perceived 'weaknesses', exploit them and accuse them of being intolerant when as a matter a fact they exemplify the complete opposite...it's typical of the smear tactics of the likes of Kashani to brand CRITIQUE OF AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY as ANTI-AMERICANISM...it's really quite pathetic and if anything a sign of their desperation...according to these bastions of the free society we ought to sit down, shut up and just let the criminal Cheney gang lie, cheat, kill, maim and destroy whatever they desire, all in the name of freedom and democracy...such a position couldn't be the utmost betrayal of such ideals...FK and his closet-fascistic cohort need to get used to others expressing their views and disagreeing with them, because we ain't going nowhere...
Ba Arezu-ye Movafaghiat, Sadegh
anti-Americanism
by AmirAshkan Pishroo on Sun Aug 17, 2008 03:45 PM PDTThe holy alliance among Islamists, Stalinists, and proponents of Third Worldism has made anti-Americanism popular again. They are given star treatment in the European and global media.
Adding salt to injury, the fact that America is the sole hegemon in the world as such is enough to attract resentments, hostilities and criticisms which some are baseless, and others have more merit than others.
That said, I don't see Sadegh's writings falling into the anti-Americanism.
Amazing how some
by Farhad Kashani on Sun Aug 17, 2008 03:16 PM PDTAmazing how some self-described leftist calling me a “right winger”! The one who “invents” reality and make belief!
That’s what I meant by living in a bubble. They are not living in 08/16/2008 to see that those co called “Christian Zionists” elected the least “Christina Zionist” in the republican party, not Romney, whose obvious attempt to “sound religious”, did not work at all among who you U.S and Iran bashers call “Christian Zionists”!
Those people make up reality about states not teaching evolution! They don’t look at facts and reality, when in a Pennsylvania town, which is by far, the biggest example of a tiny minority of Christians trying to change laws, the school board denied their request to teach intelligence creation along with evolution.
Those people are so brainwashed that they don’t even know that, as we speak, U.S law prohibits the assassination of foreign leaders.
Those people don’t realize that America not only guarantees right of all, men and women, but it has inspired the world in doing that. I don’t know, maybe these people still live in the first 13 colonies times
!
Who are they trying to fool?
Peekachu, read my article
by Farhad Kashani on Sun Aug 17, 2008 03:06 PM PDTPeekachu, read my article called "rising expectations" which discredits pretty much everything you guys preach for.
The important thing about that article is, unlike what your claim says, is one of the most facts-cited articles on this site. I've cited all sources, even leftist ones such as Guardian, which ranked Iran is one of the top 10 worst offenders of human rights in the world.
darius jaan, absolutely right. Don't worry about these people. They live in a different planet.
Sadegh, looking at things
by Farhad Kashani on Sun Aug 17, 2008 03:01 PM PDTSadegh, looking at things through an ideological lens is what makes someone sound “stupid”, not looking at facts. In every comment you make about America, whether its about its foreign policy, domestic policy, attitude towards the Iranian regime (not the people),..everything, you blindly and without any regards to logic, facts and reason, bash the U.S. So don’t give me this BS about you were not trying to say “this” or you were not trying to say “that”. Now that I made a logically sound point and discredited your baseless claims, you are trying to assassinate my character.
We can all read between the lines my friend, we can all tell what ideological spectrum you belong to, we can all see what you’re trying to say. You wanna discredit American politics; moist importantly you are trying to make it look at the actions the U.S is taking towards the Iranian regime is somehow out of religious conviction or because of rise of Christianity in politics. like I said my dear friend, you’re not fooling anyone!
Look, no one is denying a resurgence in the Christian movement the after the during and after the Bush election. 3 things are important to look at here:
1- Corporate and leftist media has exaggerated the magnitude and the importance of this resurgence.
2- This movement is dying out.
3- Like I gave you the example of Falwell, Americans, even the religious ones, are civically educated and aware enough not to mix politics with religion, although, some strong moves has been made by Robertson and Perkins and others to get something done. It has failed, and it will fail in the future. The Republican Party itself chose one, if not, the least most religious candidate of them all, and polls show that religion is not even anywhere on top of the list of American’s concerns in the upcoming election.
Sadegh, trust me, you ain’t foolin no one !
Merci Mammad
by sadegh on Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:20 PM PDTMerci Mammad khan,
Normally I ignore the delusional ranting of FK (I recently saw one of his comments in which he compared Putin to Stalin and all I could do was laugh), but this time it was so abundantly clear that he had either not read the article or not even understood a single word that I had to set the record straight. Thanks for your kind words...they are as always very much appreciated.
Ba Arezu-ye Movafaghiat, Sadegh
Sadegh
by Mammad on Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:03 PM PDTThank you for your work. Excellent piece, as usual.
Some people, who ask you to come out of the bubble, live in a black hole themselves, which means that they have separated themselves from the rest of the universe. At least, your bubble, which does not exist of course, can burst any minute. A black hole, on the other hand, is forever separated from the universe and its realities.
That is the way the guy in the black hole works. If he does not like citation of your real statistics, compiled by a reputable organization, he invents his own statistics. He is an ultra-right wing man who, following the guru of proaganda, the Gobelz-like Carl Rove, "creates reality as we go."
Last week, words came out that Tom Ridge, the former Pennsylvania Governor and the first Homeland Security Secretary, who supports abortion rights, might be picked by McCain as his VP. There was a storm of protest by the people you are talking about in your piece. It got so bad that McCain's spokesman had to deny the "rumors."
Mit Rumni, who was a moderate man when he was Governor of Massachusetts, had to transform himself into an ultra-right, anti-abortion, bible-carrying guy, in order to have any chance of being the nominee of the Republican Party.
In many states, the Christian Right has succeeded in forcing teachers to teach the phony "creation science" or one of its variations. In Kansas, they even succeeded in ELIMINATING evolution teaching in schools!
For decades, American women tried to pass an Equal-Rights Amendment to the Constitution, so that women would be treated as equals to men. They could not. Why? Because the people you are talking about prevented it.
These are just a few examples of what these people have been doing to the wonderful democratic tradition of the U.S., in addition to supporting war and state-sponsored assassinations around the world. Remember that Pat Robertson, among other "men of God," suggested assassination of Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez, among others.
Mammad
Really good essay Sadegh.
by Peekachu (not verified) on Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:41 AM PDTReally good essay Sadegh. Don't let the uneducated likes of Kashani get you down. As you said he clearly doesn't even read the essays before posting comments. Very sad and embarrassing. It is actually very funny that Kashani of all people is complaining about facts and figures seeing that he never uses himself. Keep up the excellent work Sadegh jan.