Jahanshah Javid

The real drama

It looks so naturally unfashionable to oppose an unnatural fashion, nowadays.

Nur

This is not my field of research. I just saw a TV program on this matter some years ago. I should have mentioned that it obviously is not a culture of all aboriginal. They have enough of generalization and stereotypes. But it is the culture of some, in Canada. They are now called aboriginal in Canada too. This to undo the stereotype of 'Eskimo' or 'Indian' or even 'Amerindian' but it didn't help much did it?!

To Benross: Which Aboriginal culture are you talking about?

Which Aboriginal culture are you talking about? Certainly this isn't the case with Australian Aborigines across the board who have very clear-cut social taboos against homosexuality. This is also the case with countless other Indigenous cultures elsewhere. There is only one known Native American culture that accords respect to gay people, but that is it, and they certainly don't make the gay person to be divine as you claim.

If you have a source for your claim, though, I'd like to see it.

bommanyli: Are you for

bommanyli: Are you for real?? I think you're trying to hide your own homosexual tendencies because you think it's sin in Islam.

work it girl

Here's my contribution to this blog:

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OH25Lty8gE&feature=related

I'm sorry JJ--and everyone else.  I know that this is a serious subject, but I just couldn't resist! 

bomannyali

I agree with you. Generally speaking, I've found many of the gay people, intolerant and very much paranoid.

Ironically, in the work place, they could become very mean and manipulator just by jealousy. Sometimes I was shocked by their reaction to the other coworkers promotion. I had the same experience as you described here:

"I find gay people very disrespectful, rude and in your face types. 
they are also extremely jusgemental when they go around and yell that
others are labeling them. "

But I have to add too, that I think this kind of behavior is mostly seen in the less cultivated people. The higher the culture, the less aggressive and defensive they are. I believe this sense of insecurity and over-sensitivity come  from  the environment in which they have grew.

"gays are intolerant."

Intolerant?? LOL that's a joke given everything else you said in your comment.

To be perfectly honest your entire post reads more like a not so funny joke to me than anything else. However if you truly believe in everything you have said, then let me tell you that you are as far from 'God' as one could possibly be.

ComedianMehran

I understand that you are trying to rationalize your behaviour. I fully respect that. But love is not prescribed. First of all, we Iranians, we had a long standing understanding of a non sexual love, called 'mehr'. When it comes to sexual love, I don't know why I should seek it in the body of a person that repulses me. For those to whom it is not repulsive, there is something fundamentally irrational at play by nature. I don't understand it. But I acknowledge that it does exist. I also suspect that this rationalization is a Western phenomena, more related to its cultural obsession with sexuality rather than a gay issue, which does produce some intolerable off-springs.

مردی که دلش میخواست زن باشد

مردی که دلش میخواست زن باشد

//iranian.com/main/blog/red-wine

Also, homosexuality is not a

Also, homosexuality is not a modern phenomenon, so I am not all that convinced that discussions of this issue in Iranian society should be phrased in a modern v anti-modern prism

No it is not  But individual rights is a modern concept and those who talk about democracy and don't understand its modern definition, they don't have the faintest idea what differs a modern democratic body with, say a counsel of rish sefidaan.

It is in that perspective that homosexuality, persecuted throughout the history in many cultures, becomes an evocative issue.

Interestingly, in aboriginal culture, homosexual is a divine person, often given a prominent stature in the clan, because it is believed that homosexual is the 'chosen one' by mother nature.

Hehehehe

I love the guy who says that gays should be put to death!!  That's awesome.  Listen, he's entitled to his opinion.  He's probably not terribly popular... given the way that violent and ugly opinions like that have a way of pushing people away-- and that is his lot in life.  There's a degree of pity there for him... but not much.

As for traditional family values, I think, if you look at the world, those traditions are shifting totally independently of any gay movement.  What is revolutionary about coming out is the statement that the mold MAY be broken.  And that's okay.  New ways of loving and understanding and adapting are called on all the time in the process of human evolution.  "Traditional family values" once included the right by which women were traded as property.  Ask the modern liberated woman if that sounds okay, or if that looked like a situation that deserved reevaluation.

I'm sorry, I scrolled up to see if there was anything else I wanted to comment on before I have to run to a show... and I passed over the whole taking advantage of naive men thing... HYSTERICAL!  I'm not saying that it doesn't happen.  I'm saying that MEN DO THIS ALL THE TIME TO WHATEVER GENDER THEY'RE ATTRACTED TO!!  With that, I'd actually say that I see it more in heterosexual men than I do in homosexual men.  The out gay men I know can't be BOTHERED with amateur gays.  We need coupling and experienced partnership-- that isn't going to be readily found in a naive partner.  On the other hand, go to any mostly straight nightclub, sit back and watch the predatory habits of the average hedonistic male.  I'm basically saying that the problem is hedonism, not homosexuality.  Love is in the details, people.  It's about making distinctions and striving for accuracy.  Like, people talk about "black" problems, when they're often times talking about problems that relate to people who are socio-economically depressed... Let's start talking smarter.

Also, religious books are tremendous works of fiction.  God, and one's relationship with God, are always intensely personal.  I say this not as a homosexual, but as a thinking man.  Ta.

reply to comment

benross,

Open your eyes if your head is not hidden in the sand. Homosexuality is not a culture. There are people who are born that way. This is not a question of your taste or anybody else. It's the question of individual rights. You are not going to block it. Promise

 And exactly why should i open my eyes and try to be "understanding".  what do i have to gain?  i will only have things to lose like my belief in God, Quranic scripture and my culture.

Maybe, I should also try to "open my eyes" and "understand" when a 16 yr Hispanic girl becomes intentionally pregnant because she needs a somebody-like an infant to provide her with love that she never got in her family.

Maybe, I should also try to open my eyes and understand that a 19 yr old Marine who is killing innocent children in Afghanistan only joined because he was short on money and his family was dysfunctional.

maybe, i should open my eyes wide enough and put no limits and boundaries and structure in my family. 

Mr. Benross, what you are perscribing may be termed "being open minded" but it is a prescription for disaster and unhappy endings and would damage you and your family more than it can help the "misunderstood" communities out there

Please Blog

Friends,

I am traveling and have not been able to read all your comments. I will tonight.

In the meantime, it would be great if you BLOG about your views and experiences.

This is an issue that deserves more attention. If you have more than a few sentences to share, please do so in a blog. =

Thank you so much for coming out, so to speak :>)

You have the right to

You have the right to whatever in western countries but if you try and bring this culture over to Iran, I will not tolerate it one bit.

Open your eyes if your head is not hidden in the sand. Homosexuality is not a culture. There are people who are born that way. This is not a question of your taste or anybody else. It's the question of individual rights. You are not going to block it. Promise. 

benross

The reactionary v modern dichotomy vis-a-vis family values is a Marxist sociological perspective that is no longer taken seriously by sociologists or social psychologists. Traditional family values are also not incompatible with democracy or freedom. Marxist sociology talks this way, but its reasoning is flawed and based on incorrect premises.

Take the example of India, i.e. the world's largest democracy. Traditional values are largely intact yet the political system is secular democratic. Traditional Hindu social and family values are just as conservative as ours, but they have managed to make their political system work for them while also keeping their cultural values intact.

Also, homosexuality is not a modern phenomenon, so I am not all that convinced that discussions of this issue in Iranian society should be phrased in a modern v anti-modern prism. The modern man, as you put it, is also a product of dislocated economic social engineering, much of whose features is incompatible (even antagonistic) with several thousand years of our Iranian cultural experience and heritage.

What I am saying is that this homosexuality issue can in fact be theoretically reconciled with the traditional Iranian value system. Iranian gays don't need to go antagonistic against the traditional value system or attempt to dismantle it or go in opposition to it as the Western gay perspective on the political level seems to have done.

my belief: its an abomination

I find gay people very disrespectful, rude and in your face types.  they are also extremely jusgemental when they go around and yell that others are labeling them.

most gays do suffer and/or have suffered from serious psychological problems and by that i don't mean depression.  they happen to be pathological liars too.

people who identify themselves as gay can do so with no problems, they can even hug and kiss.  However, if sexual activity is involved, i strongly believe that they should be punished and put to death as is the policy in iran.

gay people are manipulative.  they may buy some candy and offer it to you or they may invite your family to a dinner or something.  their point is not so much to befriend you, rather it is to have you suppress what you believe in culturally and religiously. 

gays are intolerant.  they think that they have the right to call you a bigot and hateful person for simply believing in your relgion and culture which says that gays will go to Hell.  What kind of respect for others is that

gays tend to abuse their relations with naive men.  most men enjoy the company and fraternity with other men.  They enjoy spending late nights with their male friends and going traveling.  This is especially true in Middle Eastern culture.  Unfortunately, in closet gays seek to manipulate these types of emotions to convince a male that it is ok to get intimate.  again manipulative.

i think that a person can stay a closet gay, maybe even kiss and hold hand with no problem.  but if he crosses the line - usually with sex- then i dont think that it is forgivable.  Such a person would be better off not getting sexually involved at all- if catholic priests can do it why cant those folks do it too. 

remember, God's punishment- its in all Holy books and Earthly books.  If you don't believe in God, then  tough luck convincing me that I shouldn't support gays to be put to death-

also gay culture is an abomination not only to God but also to nature and natural selection.  You have the right to whatever in western countries but if you try and bring this culture over to Iran, I will not tolerate it one bit. 

On a personal note; one time an Iraqi man confided in me that he was gay and attracted to one of my co-workers at the time I was living in US.  I guess he decided to tell me that because I have a very good customer service and I am extremely nice/polite and always try to make things right.  Well, I was really taken back by this.  I thought that it was not only unprofessional for him to share this but extremely rude.  What was I expected to do.  Was I supposed to forgo by Islamic beliefs to help him get his target.  Was I supposed to keep this a secret between us to and hence share "a bond" with a person I believe is desecrating God and religion.  Well, I thought long about it and I decided that just like he felt he has the right to burden me with his secret , then I too have the right to act as I please.  I made sure that a good portion o the community knew about this.  I would say things like, "Brother Ahmad, I think Omar needs some help.  Why do you say that? well he told he he is homosexual and I think some brothers should visit him and talk to him about Islam and God" 

Well, it didn't take long for the Iraqi guy to leave the city with no trace and move on to wherever.  I guess maybe he thought we Iranians are gentle and nice.  Heck we are, but don't try to make me a partner in your Satanic schemes I thought.

Congratulation JJ, now you cut yourself a job!

Somehow it sounds like the same reaction of the politician that JJ was talking about!

But Nur has a point and I agree. Common sense should prevail.

The issue in itself is not mine or JJ's. But it is a very evocative of our political beliefs. Most of those who pretend they were duped by akhoonds, were actually akhoonds themselves but they didn't look at themselves carefully.

Being traditional also is not the issue. The issue is that a reactionary man can not tolerate a modern man. Therefore he can not be the agent of democracy and freedom. A modern man can tolerate a reactionary man, therefore he can provide and protect democracy and freedom.

The criticism of DK on guy movement in the west is better understood in that perspective.

How do you reconcile traditional family values with this?

And I am not simply talking about male patriarchal models of machismo -- although that is part of it.

Our traditional family values are usually one of the most conservative in the world. Man/woman is the only acceptable paradigm of a couple, and this man and woman usually have to be legally married for the coupling to be deemed legitimate. Modernity and the Islamic (counter-)revolution have corroded aspects of this traditional value system, but the functioning idea of the paradigm remains firmly intact.

Yes, there are and have always been genuine homosexuals in Iranian society (pedophiles and bi-sexuals don't count here). However you will never get to tolerance of Iranian gays unless the traditional family value system is also respected (not dismissed or dismantled) on its own terms. This is the problem with the gay movement in the West in that it has somehow become an agent of social disintegration of traditional family structures.

Now Iranian families are usually more tolerant of each other and, in its non-dysfunctional forms, display and harbor far more love towards each other and togetherness than many other cultures (esp. Anglo-European ones). I think the best strategy that an Iranian gay movement (hopefully headed by JJ) can take on board is to be an agent of social integration rather than that of disintegration. If Iranian gays can somehow become champions of the Iranian traditional family value system, and not become its voluntary or involuntary antagonists, then I submit that any struggle for their own liberation and social recognition is already two-thirds won!

آزادی طلبان را

آزادی طلبان را بشناسیم.. همانهایی که به سرنگونی «دیکتاتوری» افتخار می‌کنند!

@#$%^&*

I hope you'll burn by sun as close as possible before you go to hell if there is any left.         

nothing is sacred BUT WHERE IS DECNCY?.   Maziar

to gay or not to gay...that is the question

I agree with you JJ, suppose you were, so what?  Sixty some years ago MLK was yelling at the top of his lungs to judge the content of one's character, are we ever going to listen to that?

Although I admire and respect you for going out of your way and talking about this, but I don't think you have any responsibility to explain yourself and your sexual orientation.

Iranian.com is an outstanding forum that has been more than fair and just in reflecting everyone's views.  I think your idea was great and you have done a bang up job thus far.

I don't think anyone should explain themselves as to their choice of sexuality, whether they are not main stream or not.  It's not like someone is calling you a bad person, mean individual, or says anything negative about your personality that you have to argue and prove them wrong.  

Gay or not, that's how it is.  You don't like it, tough, swallow like a real man!!!

And this dude is thinking of running for presidency of Iran?  Is he trying to prove that he can be more of an idiot than Mahmoodi?  He is going to be a leader?  Leading whom, into what?

Most people like him or Mahmood Chakhan, were either abused while in their late teens and didn't do anything about it so now they feel guilt and therfor anger, or simply liked it and now have to protect their true feelings because they're in office or running for one.

They can break all the mirrors not to see themselves, but mirrors break into pieces and never go away.

If You Want to Know if You Are Gay or Not...

Give me a kiss and I'll tell you!

my personal story

So when i was about 45 yrs old I realized that I am still searching for something that kept me unsettled.  I wondered how others could settle years and decades earlier than me but not me.  I felt that perhaps that had to do with possible homo-palatonic tendencies that I had in my life but were always non sexual.

Yes I was married and had recently divorced.  I had a single daughter only.  My obligations and responsibilities were extremely limited.  So I thought why not explore what is still out there.  I first went out and had a vasectomy to make sure I can keep my resposibilities to an extreme minimum.  Then I started to frequent gay night clubs in disticts outside my work and home area.  That way I wouldn't have someone who knows me recognize me.

Over time, I befreinded a 29 yr old young man and was smitten by him.  Things were non sexual at first.  On a rainy day when it was my birthday, I decided that I would make sleep with my new friend named Rick.  So as I was making preparations for the big night, I made sure that I disconnect my telephone to make sure no one calls me and ruins my mood.  As night fell, Rick was invited over.  We cuddled and engaged in foreplay.  I had my shirt off.  I am 70 pounds overweight mind you,  but to each his own.  Then the bells rings.  I answered, and there was my daughter Marjane.  She had come all the way from DC to visit me on my birthday.  I asked why she didnt tell me before hand.  She said she wanted it to be a surprise and plus everytime she called my phone was off.  She had a bouquet of flowers.  I took the flowers from her.  I told her I have a friend in my bedroom named Rick and briefly described the new me.  I called a motel close by, and sent my daughter to sleep in the motel.  I used the rose pedals to spray my bed as magic happened with Rick that night. 

The next morning, my daughter said she is leaving back.  I had to calm her and explain to her that this whole thing was so wholesome and she needs to understand that freedom also includes freedom for homosexuality.  She was stunned but as I explained, she said that if that is how I feel, then so be it.  She stated that I am going too far, trying to be an extreme liberal and promoting and engaging in homosexuality yet shirking away from my responsibilties as a parent.  I told her, that she has grown up and I totally believe in her right to do as she pleases.  She asked well what if you heard that I am a lesbian.  I said, I would celebrate it because it would make me an even more liberal and given my training to learn the British accent, I can sound off like I am a high class liberal with high culture.  My daughter walked away, guessing that I have been greedy all my life and irresponsible.  I shouted to her as she was leaving that I recently had a vasectomy to promote woman's rights and power.  I thought she would get happy, only for her to turn around and say, "you are indeed a 'namard' in every sense of the word"  I felt bad for a bit, then called Rick and invited him over.  He made me forget my problems and I continued my normal or "un-normal" life.  Rick today is all of my life.  He helped me start a magazine.  Helped me start pro-gay cultural events.  I feel so gayed out, I will try to lose some weight to show up with him in the Gay prade with my speedo on and nothing else.  To date, my daughter is ok with me.  My sister's husbands think I have lost it and always treat me like a kid.  I wonder why?

Speaking of homosexuality in Iran

watch this. Hilarious

//www.spicyjihad.com/pagevideo&video_id=31

Mehraban and DK

It wasn't brave at all to tell you the truth. It was brave however, to experiment it in the first place. I always lived my life to its fullest, specially when I was young. Telling the story is not brave at all. I'm just fed-up with double talk of human rights defenders. You want to defend human rights? then just do it. As I said, can you top that?! It wasn't a show-off. It was to show saying and believing in freedom is not necessarily the same thing,... and it won't fool anybody either.

How can you reduce a personality to a sexual organ ?

Sexuality is a Western obsession. It's not only among gay community. But as a minority, they reflect the same obsession in a very provocative manner.

I personally think that provocation is better than the Eastern model of suppression. But I see it as a 'phase' to undo the damage of suppression. But I agree with you DK, that it doesn't look like a simple 'phase' for the time being.

I don't even pretend to understand the homosexuality. It is a very enigmatic phenomena. I know a woman who's husband has left her with her father... go figure!

.  

.

Oh here goes.

The issue isn't whether homosexuality is right or wrong.  The issue,
rather, is where does any one person find the delusional authority to
limit or call for the limitation of the civil liberties of consenting
adults?  Should I elect to dress as a chicken for the rest of my days,
feathered from eyelashes to balls, and host the filthiest soirees at my
apartment where I wag my fowl penis at an enclave of cognizant, excited
and willing masturbating geriatric patients, then more power to me. 
If that is, at the end of the day, what my soul needs, then I fulfill
my life's calling to see it actualized.  We should all be so lucky.

With regard to pedophilia, the distinction MUST be made clear that
it is a crime of power and fear and a crime that exploits the presence
of mind of a sexually immature life.  Before we go persecuting
homosexual men, it should be mentioned that 80% of molestation sex
crimes are committed against girls.  Additionally, in 1992, the
Children's Hospital of Denver did a thorough analysis of all the child
molestation cases that passed through its doors for a year.  They found
that of the 269 reported incidents, only TWO of the perpetrators could
be identified as gay or lesbian.  This placed the incidence rate for
adult homosexuals committing acts of pedophilia between 1 and 3.1% and
the likelihood that such an act would be carried out by a heterosexual
male or family member was 100 times greater. (Carole Jenny, Tom
Roesler, and Kimberly Poyer, "Are Children at Risk
for Sexual Abuse by Homosexuals?," Pediatrics, 94(1), July 1994, pp.
41-44)

I think the greatest source of harm in this world comes
in the making wrong of natural urges.  Repression is a cancer to the
spirit.  When you pressure people into the suppression of their
consensual sexual inclinations and create a culture where they are
trained, at a very early age, to judge, compartmentalize and feel shame
for impulses that can not be empirically demonstrated as moral or
immoral, you create a fertile bed for self-hatred, confusion and, in a
great many cases, violence and abuse.  What is missing in these cases,
and in almost all arguments about homosexuality, is the fostering of
mutual respect, compassion and understanding for what is fundamentally
human.  Conversation isn't being had.  There is no safety or
trustworthiness being created to encourage essential candor that could
facilitate a healthier, more informed dialogue about sexuality in
general.  Questions aren't being asked.  Impacts are not being
objectively assessed.  Nothing is kind, polite, sophisticated,
scholarly or wise.  It is all blanket assertion, superiority and
condemnation.  This is, in a word, unintelligent.

What's nasty in the above post is that Jahanshah is being called
homosexual in a disparaging way.  As if the very state of being
homosexual is fundamentally pejorative.  When we take a step back, we
can see that any and all sexuality could ostensibly be criminalized--
and not too long ago in our own history, it almost all was.  Think of
the picture from Abu Ghraib where the female soldier was mockingly
pointing at a hooded and shackled inmate's genitals.  That could be any
of us.  What if we did the opposite?  What if, instead of shaming
eachother, we created a realm of possibility where no one had to feel
shame for their sexual selves?  What if, instead, we pointed and
laughed at the people who felt the need to belittle others?  They're
really not so tough.  Rather, their weakness and shame is transparent. 
Seriously, how disastrous must their own sex lives be that they feel
compelled to label other people's sex and sexuality as indecent?  I
promise you, their sex lives are awful.  Happy, sexually actualized,
sex-positive people don't run around condemning people.  They're too
busy living happy lives.

Take me, for example.  I have terrible sex and I took the time to
write this commentary.  Seriously, gay or not, my sex life needs
improvement.  Any takers?  Men only need apply.

Love,
Mehran

benross Jaan BRAVO ! ;0)

Now That Was A BRAVE Confession !

My Hats Off to Your Sincerity !

I do have a problem with Proselytism amongst some Gay People ...

To be quite honest on the subject ... I do have a problem with Proselytism amongst some Gay People.

As much as I do believe in Gay People being entitled to the same rights as anyone else in a democratic society, I do tend to find some Pro-Gay activism in the western media irritating.

For instance there is alot of debates today about allowing Gay parenthood and recently in France some teachers have suggested to introduce "Gay Awareness" to kids in elementary school through "Gay Fairy tales" about two same sex fish falling in love and to present it as something natural.

I have no definitive opinion on these questions. I don't think we can generalize on whether a Gay couple is fit to adopt or not and it all boils down to individual cases and exceptions which therefore have to be studied case by case.

But I do think that partly because of AIDS and it's dramatic consenquences many in the Gay Community have been presented as victims of a kind of racism and at times justifiably.

On the otherhand I have also noticed a form of  Proselytism amongst not just Gay people but also amongst pro Gay activists in social occasions.

I don't like Gay Pride demonstrations for instance. I don't find them funny. Call me intolerant if you will but that's just how I feel when I see a man dressed as a transvestite and trying to shock or provoke you by pointing a Dildo just under your nose or in front of your kids.

Why is this tolerated and often indulged particularly by fellow females but any macho attitude is immediately castrated by our fellow female colleagues or friends like for instance when a man let's say wistles at a beautiful girl's legs or patting the bottom of a Stewardess in a plane is considered as a sexual assault ?

Some Gay people especially if they are men feel empowered in presence of other women and tend to play around any straight guy they want or think they can seduce. In the process I have witnessed other women actually encouraging the Gay guy in his vain attempts as if it excited their imagination or something dunno ? ...

Personally for instance as a rule of politenenss I don't like to be a party booper by behaving aggressively if a Gay guy at a party starts joking or fooling around me. But I do admit that if he overdoes it I get nervous and It's conly social hypocrisy that inhibits me from telling him to scram. As a result of this political correctness it is often the Heterosexual who is actually being unjustly cornered.

I won't generalize this but I have encountered this attitude amongst many Gay Men. It is harder to notice this amongst Lesbians cause many female homosexuals don't necessarily have a masculine behavior but most male gays are immediately recognizable because of an effeminite attitude if we dismiss the SM ones. But Many beautiful and feminin women can be homosexual or bisexual without the slightest hint in their appearance or general behavior. That is less or never the case with Gay men.  

Also I find this tendancy of having to typcast people to a given community based on their sexuality annoying. How can you reduce a personality to a sexual organ ? It's not because you have the same sexual orientation that you are fit to live or love one another ...

So why should any encountrance with a Gay Man or Women be aimed at a Sexual Flirt ?

That is why I can't stand this hypocritical political correctness which forbids anyone to denounce or even criticize Gay Proselytism on grounds of equal rights and tolerance in LA LA LAND ! ...

So Yes even if I don't want to generalize I have to admit that I do find co-existing with Gay Men or Transvestites problematic whether at work or at Parties or social gatherings not to say even when I was at School. Which does not mean that I wish them any harm.

Monty Python's The life of Brian - I want to be a woman:

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFBOQzSk14c

Am I being too harsh ? ...

You Tell Me !

My Humble Opinion,

DK

Wow! Benross!

this is a new benchmark in transparency at IC.  Congradulations for your openness.  Really.

PS. it looks like I'm following you today, I really am not it is just that your comments are very striking today.