Faramarz's Latest Rambling

Where is the critique?

Or is this another one of your feable attempts at posting a comment with just a headline and an unrelated text below it?

Alborz

Critique of Tahirih Justice Center

Female Circumcision And The Tahirih Justice Center
  by Michael Barker

"Female circumcision has been condemned as a 'torture' or 'degrading treatment' that lacks any 'respect for dignity' of women and girls. And it should be. Unfortunately, some of the most egregious manifestations of 'degrading treatment' and lack of 'respect for dignity' lie in the modus operandi of many Westerners (feminists and others) who have intervened in this matter. The resistance of African women is not against the campaign to end the practice, but against their dehumanization and the lack of respect and dignity shown to them in the process." 
—Obioma Nnaemeka, 2005. (1)

Counter-Discourses And Female Circumcision
  by Michael Barker 

A note

Alborz,

Many Bahai's have left Iran since '79. Canada used to have a special program for Bahai trans-migration, a program which was, to some extent, if not entirely, funded by the Interantional Bahai community and supported by the Government of Canada. Denouncing the Bahai belief has also bought many a Bahai the rite of passage to leave Iran and settle abroad among their brethren. I am not informed on the numbers growing or dwindling in Iran. What I do know is through personal connections. Atrocities abound toward the Bahais in Iran.

It is my understanding that the Bahai community at large provides excellent support for all its old and new members. The same cannot be said for the female population in Iran.

Education and freedom both come at a price.

source of statistics for Bilani

Mr. Bilakhi,  

I called the 12th Imam.  Although he was having a meeting with Ahmadinejad, he spent some time and gave me the figures.

Not intended for Bilani!

Enmasse migration of oppressed groups is a fact of history and Iran has not been exempt from this phenomena.

The enmasse migrations of Zoroastrian to India (the Parsis') since the advent of Islam, the Jews and Christians, since the 1979 Islamic revolution are but just a few examples in Iran.

In all instances the population of these communities in Iran has diminished as a direct result of enmasse migration.  However, the same cannot be said about the Baha'is of Iran. Their community, while deprived and oppressed, has remained resolute in remaining in Iran and continues to serve their fellow countrymen.  And yes, their number has increased and while no official records or data can be generated in Iran, there are reports that many Iranians have expressed their belief in the Faith. For obvious reasons they cannot express this openly out of fear of being labled as an apostate - with the death penalty as its consequence.

While Iran's Baha'i community has been deprived from education and civil rights, the Baha'i World Community has flourished and been able to take significant steps in serving the world community.  An example of this is the Tahirih Justice Center, founded by Leili Miller, a Baha'i Attorney.  She is an example of how oppression of the Iranian Baha'i Community has led to the potency of this community to be fulfilled across the globe.

The ability to infer is indeed a noble attribute!

For more on the Tahirih Justice Center see:

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVFlml2exiY&feature=related

and //www.tahirih.org/

Baha'is will continue to be a source of pride for Iran.

Alborz

Mr. Fateh

You note[I will attempt to clarify my agenda for you since after numerous posts you still have not realized it.  quot;Globally", my agenda is to continuously remind people that Islam has been the worst thing that has happened to Iran.  I do not teach hatered of Muslims on here]

Lets not contradict yourself by placing your foot in our mouth. No matter how you want to dress it up, the stench of your hatred is obvious.

Final note, watch your language. Bit of civility won't  diminish glow of your bigotry ... Mibakhshin ;-)

Good day sir

-YT 

Where did u get this statistics from ?

Until the revolution, 1 out of every 35-45 people in Iran was a
Bahai.  Now that figure is less than 1 out of every 250-350.  There are
no university professors, less than 100 doctors and 0 Bahai
industrialists in Iran.  Less than 25% of Bahai youth can get a
university education (Bahais attend online university courses but due
to government crack down it takes 7-8 years to finish a BA/BS degree).

If it was any other group besides the Bahais, 95% of them would have left Iran and the other 5% would have lived in destitude.

Can you provide the source please ?

Thank you.

complex issues

And I think some misunderstandings and interpretations!  I don't see how anyone could fault Faramarz for this blog!!!  He couldn't be more obvious about his pride and praise for Iranian women, while comparing their oppression to the women of Baha'i.  Nothing more, nothing less.  And it ends up into a religious discussion/argument.  Again!  Focus people, focus!  :-)

But then he comes back himself with that anti-religion (of any kind apparently).  I continue to respect you Faramarz.  I appreciate your writings and I agree with you more often than not.  But I just can not get past your proposal of sending religion to the back room.  I'm not defending Islam versus Christianity versus Judasim.  I'm defending the right of all people to practice their religion and not having to hide it.  I hope Captain is wrong and that this isn't just a forum to express hatred for Islam.  Prove me wrong...:-)

Captain.  I'm not sure we really differ at all about abortion.  I can't imagine that you "like" the idea of it.  You are merely expressing the right of a woman to make that choice herself.  And I agree 100%.  But I do have to qualify that with the fact that I disagree with abortion.  I understand the necessity under certain conditions but I do have moral issues with it.  So while my moral feelings are anti-abortion, I am absolutely pro-choice.  Does that make sense?  :-0

I'd enjoy continuing this either here or in your new blog!

Capt_Ayhab

I will attempt to clarify my agenda for you since after numerous posts you still have not realized it.  "Globally", my agenda is to continuously remind people that Islam has been the worst thing that has happened to Iran.  I do not teach hatered of Muslims on here.  That is a crazy thought by you; 90% of readers of this blog are Iranians and 95% of Iranians are Muslims.  So, how in the heck would I be teaching hatered of Muslim?  Are you (excuse me) crazy?

Locally (this blog) my intention was to point out similarity of what has happened to women and Bahais in Iran during the past 30 years; that is, failure of attempts at systematic oppression of women and Bahais in Iran.

Now, if you want to continue saying oppression of women has been more than 400 years, more power to you.  If you want to say my agenda is to teach hatered of Muslims by Muslims, agian, more power to you.

My dear che......

I see your point very clearly. To me abortion is a personal choice that woman makes and she should be able to make that choice without any ones involvement, be it law makers, religious conservative and etc etc.

I see that we deeply differ in our opinion about abortion, may I ask you a question? Are you of Catholic faith by any chance?

If you chose to answer me, then I would love to debate you on the abortion issue. As a matter fact, I am working on a rough draft of a thread that discusses the exact issue.

-YT 

Mr. Fateh

You noted:[Not even YOU can equate the station, situation and rights of women in the U.S. with that of women in Iran; can you? If you do/can, there is no discussing with you in that regard. You have a warped sense of reality.]

Firstly sir the way you confront a debate that YOU have started, with your certain agenda behind it, is rather  childish. I am not here to gather any support for what I believe in, particularly from a narrow minded person such as YOU who, rather than rebutting my idea,  choses to resort to arrogance and insult.

Secondly, My observation, as observations some other contributors, is the narrow scope of the article. To me, your writing is purely to demonstrate your PERSONAL hatred of certain religion and millions of people who believe in those teachings. You are not analyzing the plight of women, since your article claims that women been oppressed in past 400 years, and only in Muslim countries.

There is absolutely no validity to your claim, since women in one form or another been kept down and oppressed throughout the history, and throughout every form of societies. Does the word [Witch Hunt] ring any bell sir? As to your hatred of Islam, I never attempted to justify the idea of women suppression in Islam, nor did I attempt to justify it in any other religion. 

This is what I said:[Many commentator here have rather narrow view of the woman's plight
throughout the human history, hence limiting the issue to past 400
years, and to only Muslim nations. Not to mention the fact that
inequality does still exist in one form or another even in the most
democratic non-Muslim countries.

Unfortunately what I see,  the agenda behide the thread is
belittlement of entire religion, by both sides, as opposed to debating
the issue as a worldwide problem. Allow me to demonstrate;]

I challenge you to show us what part of my statement is trying to equate[as you put it] issue of women in Iran, to that of your benevolent west?

In retrospect, I am glad that you responded to me, hence demonstrating your true intentions in writing this thread, which is nothing but spreading hate toward Muslims. To me sir, and in the eyes of all civilized people, there is no difference between you and a Muslim fanatic, your are only in two extreme opposite spectrum of HATE. If there are any dissimilarities between the gentleman who demonizes YOUR faith and YOU when demonize HIS faith, lets hear about it sir.

-YT 

P/S Wearing pants suite and tie is not a distinguishing factor. HATE is the common denominator.

PP/S, If you like to see how I truly feel about haters[of all kind] and bigots[of all kind] you can follow the debates here:

//iranian.com/main/blog/capt-ayhab/bigotry-an...

My apologies to Faramarz_Fateh

Im sorry to not keep to the subject you posted about.... my response was off the main subject of your post. Im afraid I am a little ignorant about the Bahia religion and therfore felt unable to comment from that perspective. I do however sympathise and empathise with your point.

I will take up the suggestion of Frazelle 09 and repost my response as a blog on its own.

Javaneh

Education: The antidote to oppression !

A recent blog entitled "Let there be education" outlined the role that education has played in the Baha'i community and its contribution to Iran.

//iranian.com/main/2009/jun/let-there-be-education

In much the same way the blog "We are half of Iran's population" describes the potency of the overwhelmingly educated women of Iran and how they are exerting their influence on reshaping the future of Iran.

//iranian.com/main/node/73548

Alborz

Equal Rights of Women!

Sophia,   The point of "finding a purpose in life" is once found people stop bickering and nit-picking at others and just do what they have found to make them content and happy and universally accepted is service to fellow-man, try it!  

There is another principle in the Baha'i Faith that if the parents have choice due to whatever constraints they have to chose between educating their son or daughter, they should chose the daughter.  I am sure someone also can make a fuss about that.  Haven't heard one yet, but since you seem to have time maybe you should start a blog on that.

Critizing without any basis, and invoking the fear of "non-Baha'i Feminst Scholars" is again shows ignorance in regards to the facts.   You can array whatever combinations of whoever, the results speaks for itself. 

Status of Women Improving? Baha'i Perspective

Dear Friends,

I am a Baha'i male and have been married to my Baha'i wife (for over 35 years), who was raised in India after her parents were forced to flee Iran or be killed. So, my perspective will probably be a little different from others who have posted some wonderful ideas here. As I have studied the Baha'i Faith and other religions for almost 40 years, here are a few comments that I hope will be useful. [note: I am NOT a scholar]

1. Although it is clear in Islam that men are accorded a higher status than women, in Arabia, during Muhammad's time, women had a much worse status - so he improved it quite a bit.Thoughout history women had less social status - probably because of men's superior physical strength.

2. The Baha'i Faith says that spiritually men and women are the same. And, as far as rights in society, they should be equal to men in all fields. And if you look at the status of Baha'i women around the world, you will see that they are in the forefront of women's righs and the development of women. [In 1848, in Iran, the poetess Tahireh, removed her veil (temporarily) to declare the new day for women.] It will take time, but this emancipation of women will continue until she has reached full equality. 

3. People point to the Universal House of Justice and wonder why women cannot serve on that body. Baha'u'llah's appointed Interpreter, Abdu'l-Baha, said that, in the future, the reason will be as clear as the noonday sun. So, we believe there was a wisdom in him not giving the reason at that time.....but we don't know what that wisdom is. I can guess.....and this is only a guess. First of all, equality in rights does not equal equality in function. There are somethings that men cannot do - (give birth to children) and there are things that women are generally more naturally inclined. (Such as the care, education and nuturing of young infants and children). Men may be better (generally) at serving in combat positions in the military. Women (generally) may be more merciful than men. Men (generally) may be better at dispensing justice than women. So, PERHAPS (remember...just my guess or opinion) that has something to do with women being exempt from serving on the Universal House of Justice. 

4. As has been mentioned previously, those who serve on the Universal House of Justice (or any Baha'i administrative body) have no (ZERO) power or authority as individuals. This is totally different from most, if not all, other institutions in current society. There is no campaigning, no nominating allowed to be elected to Baha'is administrative bodies.....elections take place after prayer and meditation (and secret ballot) and those with the most votes are duty-bound to serve on that institution. 

5. As most of you know also, there is no professional clergy in the Baha'i Faith.....no individual has any authority over you nor any right to believe that their understanding is more valid or superior to yours. There are no rites or rituals for them to preside over. However, there are individuals who are appointed to serve in special functions - due to their high degree of service, understanding and devotion. Although these individuals have no authority whatsoever, they do have a special status in the Faith and are respected as such.  AND, many of these individuals are women........so, if you look at the highest 'status' an individual can attain in the Baha'i community.....women are VERY well represented. Again, these individuals cannot campaign for such a position - it is only for service to the community that they are appointed.

Sorry this has been a long post..... 

Sorry for veering off the

Sorry for veering off the subject but *it* happens.  :-)  My comment to Captain re: abortion:  It's not about a woman being capable of deciding for HER body.  It's about the life she holds within.  Now, I'm a firm believer in the right to choose.  No question about that.  But I'm against abortion per se.  Sounds contradictory but it's really not.  I believe that the right of a woman regarding her own body superceeds my personal belief.  But it minimizes the whole issue when you make a statement like that.  The bigger picture includes much more than a woman's rights to her own body. 

Otherwise, you're "right-on".  :-)

capt_ayhab

Not even YOU can equate the station, situation and rights of women in the U.S. with that of women in Iran; can you?

If you do/can, there is no discussing with you in that regard. You have a warped sense of reality.

As for belittlement of religion, you are 100% right.  Islam, as is and as practiced in most Muslim countries today has been, is and will probably be the biggest contributor of oppression of women and religous minorities.  This is FACT.  Islam in its infancy was probably a nice reasonable logical religion specially for Arabs of 1400 years ago.  No doubt Islam has had its positive contributions to humanity.

However, Islam MUST be erased from the social and political fabric of Iran so that the country can flourish again.  ALL other religions should also be treated such that smallest intervention of elements of any religion in politics should be illegal and punishable to the strictest degree.

Women on Universal House of Justice

i just thought that the following might shed some light on this discussion...

"As regards the membership of the International House of Justice, 'Abdu'l-Bahá states in a Tablet that it is confined to men, and that the wisdom of it will be revealed as manifest as the sun in the future. In any case the believers should know that, as 'Abdu'l-Bahá Himself has explicitly stated that sexes are equal except in some cases, the exclusion of women from the International House of Justice should not be surprising. From the fact that there is no equality of functions between the sexes one should not, however, infer that either sex is inherently superior or inferior to the other, or that they are unequal in their rights."

(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer July 28, 1936: Women, a Compilation, p. 9)

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 612)

Have a great day!  :)

"The earth is one country and mankind its citizens."

Bahá'u'lláh

Dear Javaneh . . .

While I agree entirely with your comments, I believe that the intent of the blog was to illustrate the common elements between the two segments of society that, despite the oppression directed at them, have emerged as stewards of the very lauded principles that you allude to in your comment.

That is, these two segments have not abandoned the field nor acquiesced to the norms established and maintained by the oppressor, in this case the IRI.  The reference in the blog to the past 400 years, I believe was simply a reference to a time frame where the origins of the age of enlightenment can be traced (eg. Descartes' Discourse on the Method).  However, whether it was 300 or 200 years was not the point.

You have eloquently described the undeniable differences between men and women. As the wings of one bird, both are need for a society to soar. Evidence of this in societies that have made strides in this regard is plentiful.  The -isms that you refer to, also serve as hinderences to the evolution of a society.  The more they are present they more they make manifest the social ills of a society that struggles with human rights issues (eg. Iran).

While we are all moved to support the transforming forces in Iran, the blog insightfully identifies two indices by which the success of such of a transformation may be measured.  These two indices, according to the blog, are the status of women and Baha'is in Iran.

Baha'is and women fully recognize the correlation between sacrifice and the outcome and therefore persist in what has been an epic struggle for erasing oppression from the face of our societies.

In this regard, the blog is spot on.

Alborz

Ms. Javaneh

I too, enjoyed reading your well rounded and logical comment, with which I totally agree. Many commentator here have rather narrow view of the woman's plight throughout the human history, hence limiting the issue to past 400 years, and to only Muslim nations. Not to mention the fact that inequality does still exist in one form or another even in the most democratic non-Muslim countries.

Unfortunately what I see,  the agenda behide the thread is belittlement of entire religion, by both sides, as opposed to debating the issue as a worldwide problem. Allow me to demonstrate;

Why is it that some MALE, conservative senators can decide about a woman's body, when it comes to issue of abortion? Aren't women capable of deciding for their own body??

Well done madam. 

-YT 

.

. 

Anita

Shoma koja zendegi mikonin?

Discriminations ...

As a woman and non-muslim I have been discriminated in Iran.Well, I left Iran.And here I have been discriminated as a kalle-siah.

This is while  Mirza Hussein Ali Nuri (1817–1892)— (=Baha'u'llah) talked about Abandoning Prejudice (Prejudice--whether based on race, ethnicity, nationality, religion, or class) almost 160 years ago.

"Know ye not why We created you all from the same dust? That no one should exalt himself over the other. Ponder at all times in your hearts how ye were created. Since we have created you all from one same substance it is incumbent on you to be even as one soul..."

Is it that difficult to understand?

The freedom for Iran

The fight for Iran is not only for the Iranian women, bahais, Jews, christians or men... It's for all Iranians

Your blog is understood and very clear...

... and you need not be concerned about the background noise that appears anytime a blog appears on this subject.

Just click on the names of the source of the noise and see the profiles of their blogs and comments.  It is exclusively dedicated to generating noise, not too disimilar to that of a fly.

Just like any noise, it is possible to filter it because it is so consistent on theme and approach.  It appears under different names but the source is one and the same.

Alborz

Final attempt at clarification

Either my writing is so bad that it fails to drive the point home or a great majority of readers/posters on this site are somewhat clueless.

The MAIN point of this blog was and is to point out the resiliance of Iranian women and Iranian Bahais.  Despite systematic attempts by a government to oppress them, they have not given up and in some ways have become stronger.

Just look at women in many other Islamic countries; compare Iranian women to Saudi, Afghani, Sudani, Yemeni, Syrian women.  Do you get the point now?

Look at the Bahais; despite so much pressure, they have stayed in Iran, the still love their country and they have kept out of politics and joining anti IRI groups.

These are the main points of the freaking blog.

Flies, eh?

So, Mr Immune Alborz, this is what you call those who question you? Flies? Once again, you have proven that when push comes to shove, your platitudes of "peace and love" are nothing but that. You are exactly the same voice that calls the enemies of the IRI "DUST".  Good luck. I will remember and record your words scrupulously.  And oh yeah, grow some hair on your chest and criticize the current government from a political stance. Can you do that? Or are Baha'is not permitted to take partisan lines? I hope my comments are not removed. 

Dear Faramarz, thank you ...

for recognizing the stalwart efforts of Iranian women and Baha'is to serve their nation and fellow citizens.

The subject of your blog is quite clear and engaging in Baha'i apologetics is futile with those that have defined themselves on this site as antagonists.

The Faith that animates the Baha'is of Iran is immune from these attacks and they only serve as a reminder of the decrepid state that some have sunken into in their desire to defame that which an entire goverment has failed so miserably to do for over 3 decades.

Enlightened analysis such as yours is the honey that attracts the flies; however, one must not forget what they are, just flies.

An entire nation has awakened to address the plight of its people and Baha'is, despite the ravages of fanaticism which has now convinced all of its true nature, will continue to serve Iran with all of their remaining resources.

Thanks again,

Alborz

Lets not confuse the issues.

I’m unable to comment on the correlations between women within the Bahia faith and those outside of it. I think it's probably fair to say that no matter which religion one considers, women have taken a less significant role in religion in the past and still continue to do so. So I can only speak in terms of women generally. And I want to comment on the aspects of your post that relate to inequality and oppression.

My own thoughts are that the words inequality and oppression are much associated with women and are bandied about wiley niley. They have both been in existence since time began, universally, traditionally and historically, and not only for the last 400 yrs in Iran or anywhere else.

I personally think there is much confusion over the two issues. Clearly there are links and it could be easily argued that oppression arises from inequality or visa versa. However I think the whole issue of woman’s place in the scheme of life is difficult to unpick. A definition of equality is in itself a challenge. We know it to be the opposite of inequality which is somehow easier to define. To consider what and why inequality exists we have to start at the beginning and look at the differences between genders and, there are as many gender theories as there are differences and it would take a month of Sundays to work through.

Evolution theory for example, is framed around the belief that we are what we are as a result of nature and environment... we evolved from our prehistoric past, adapted and inherited traits . Some religions believe god created men and women equal in his image whilst others believe that men and women are equal before god, but not before man. There are many religious explanations... Equally there are many feminist theories ... some feminists think women’s gender differences are a result of patriarchy and yet others that the differences and inequalities arose from a background of matriarchy. And then there a heap of psychological and psychoanalytic theories ............

What ever theory you agree with doesn’t change the fact that men and women ARE physically, psychologically and physiologically different. Those differences account for the division in gender roles, which we have learnt, inherited, and have a social, cultural or religious background. All these factors have some impact. Oppression is another matter all together.

In this conversation we are focusing on the control of men over women in a harmful or unjust manner: misogyny, chauvinism, sexism, prejudice. Fear, hatred, tradition ... which ever drives it, what ever you want to call it, the result is unjust, harmful, and unacceptable. However racism is also oppression... and so on. These other ‘isms are also unacceptable to me and they exist in Iran and everywhere else in the world.

I say understand the distinction, embrace the differences and through the liberation of being hung on difference as a negative thing we can eliminate oppression.

The key to all these issues is freedom to be who you are. Lets give freedom a chance and see what happens.

If only it were that simple.

Javaneh

Abaiana- check your facts and reference properly