Bavafa

VPK: Going back to the original premise of this blog

I think we can agree that emotions are already involved to a good degree In both Western and Islamic system, by either requesting it (from Jury) or insisting on it (ghesas). The question then is who should carry it?

I think if they (the system) obligates the requester to carry it, it may help reducing the frequency of such act as killing a person is a VERY hard thing and I would imagine not many people would want to do it despite their thirst for revenge. Also, if there is ever a case of injustice and wrongful conviction, then it is on the conscience of the person who insist on the punishment.

DA: I will look forward to reading that blog :)

Mehrdad

:) .... :) REA- Stuck in the Middle of the fake Dillon

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPgFnRdTcKE

I love Ethics. So many bottoms (the shapes and sizes and views!), so many to get to grips with, so many to grab, so many just being bottoms...

And never an "end"!

"The shorter the life, the longer the death."

Btw Rea, when I type "boobooltalah" , it literally means golden willy. I just remember this being said as an expression very innocently when changing nappies years ago on someone by his mother.  I've always thought this quite significant and endearing and funny. So that you can spot it in Persian:

بوبول طلا

(: ;;; times ...

Your P.S. is another blog. Pfffoooffftah! I often feel battered. But I don't feel often molly-cuddled, because I know that  the boys know that I'm just a bit dirty but angelic and not filthy. Well not mud-riddden, anyway.And YES, I appreciate all their boobooltala's honest appreciations of wanting to have fun!

OOOPs! And their brains too.

They did. The English did all sorts of things.... And absolutely, the sanctioning holds a huge part!!!

No, it isn't . Someone cannot legitamitely carry out an act without the "sancitioning"  of  socially , an "agreed upon "   "authority" or WITH it. Who carries it out, is worthy of its own inquiries. 

But none of it makes anything, in this context, right either ....

It really is VERY complicated. 

"The shorter the life, the longer the death."

Mehrdad

The question then becomes how important is "equal justice". Meaning two people commiting similar crimes get the same punishment. In order to have "equal" justice you must keep emotions of victim out of it.

Here is an example. Say some white American girl is raped. The response  of her family may be different if the rapist was white or black. Does this mean different punishment? 

Another example is in Islamic system. It is possible to get victim to go easy by paying them. Does this mean that the rich should potentially get away with murder? Should the poor be at a disadvantage because they don't have the means to buy the favor of the victims.

What if the victim is an elderly with no family? Do they count for less? Why should that matter. A single innocent life must mean the same no matter whose life it is. Having a huge family does not make one a more valuable life.

See where it goes and it is not a fair system. There are too many holes and it will not work. Therefore I see no other option than leaving victims feelings "officially" out any criminal proceedings. Instead address them in civil law.

They can still sue for pain and loss. Just like OJ got sued. It is just a different system where restitution is handled. Islamic law mixes up the two and that results in non-uniform punishments for the same crime. 

DA: "Have I misinterpreted your entire blog?"

Beside the condom part :) not at all you are specially correct about the ethical part this barbaric act (I know I am trying to bring ethics to barbarity) -- go figure

However, if I can use your own example

Didn't English used professionals in order to inflict SLOW and PAINFUL death?

So, isn't really what is being sanctioned rather then who carries it?

Mehrdad

P.S. I think you have gather enough fan here on IC that no one will dare to want to harm you.

Mehrdad

2 much killings in IRI - like 2 see a moratorium on executions

.

VPK: Can we leave the emotion of the victim completely out of it

You are correct if the emotion was involved in determining the guilt or not guilt but we are discussing the punishment and how should carry it (providing the accused has gotten a fair and just trial and been convicted by law)

Here is another question: How does an impartial person who has no idea as what the victim is going thru and feeling decide what the right punishment should be? Please think of it in the context of guilt has been proven and capital punishment is the law of land.

Ironically, as I am thinking outloud here about this, I feel as if I am arguing for capital punishment which I am absolutely and positively against. I guess this goes to prove that no one really is equipped to take one's life. If we base the decision on the emotions, then we know the result which is foobar and if we leave it to the people that have not been affected by the crime, then they have no idea what it feels and therefore what should be the proper punishment be….

Thoughts????

Mehrdad

DA

"Your blog raises LOADS of ethical questions ...", 

Very true. It runs deep. Not sure that's what the proud owner intended, though. 

Bonne nuit. ;o)

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpD5_c2j1OM

Bavafa

No, it isn't contradictory. For I also said: "Don't let me take revenge".

In that sense, VPK was right on/in another blog. Victim's family should not be let decide on life and death, too emotional.

As for the rest, knowing VPK he'll probably go on about islamists. ;o)

Myself, I've got enough religionists of all kind to fight in Europe.

Until next reading. 

Bavafa, I think there is a misunderstanding here and

most probably because I hadn't explained the objection clearly enough. Who the professionals are and their motives, well, I  haven't got there yet.

Why the "justice", I haven't got there yet either. Basj/Sepah, use the deterrrent argument, which obviously has never and will never work....The Shariah Law "revenge" "argument" wouldn't stand hold in a 4 year old's (unless, severely mentally disturbed and retarded)mind. It's beyond dumb and barbarically stupid.

Revenge  has very little do to with justice, if anything at all. I has to do with (self)-"grattifying" "pleasure" and "temporary satisfactions"....HOWEVER mUCH MANY PRIMITIVE people want it to be something else.,,,

The first issue , after obviously being too barbaric in the first place to take another person's  or other animal's life, is the question on HOW and WHY it is done, and I gather that is, what your blog was about as well.

Your blog raises LOADS of ethical questions, which is one of the reasons that I find it so interesting.

To try to explain further ( my first problem about the" humanity" ), did you know that public executions were stopped in Britain, primarily because of the costs to the nation of the crowd being 'drunken and disorderly'  - it was a family day out and not too long ago!  - AND because they tried to help and inevitably inflicted VERY SLOW EVEN MORE PAINFUL deaths  on  the condemnded, by pulling and pushing the bodies to what they thought was a rescue?

That's what I was trying to point out, by preferring a professional to kill me off and eg a chicken, than someone chasing me with a blunt knife or not knowing how to pull a chair properly.

Have I misinterpreted your entire blog? 

"The shorter the life, the longer the death."

Mehrdad

Isn't that contradictory to the position of "No one should do it" which I agree with that is no one should do it.'

Not really if you read my other post. There is a difference between what an emotional victim wants and what is right. The right thing is to NOT have the victim decide because they are emotionally involved. Instead get people with a no personal stake making impartial judgments. These should be based on facts and law. The emotional state of a victim is sufficient to cloud their judgment. They may be so angry they do not even get the right person. Then be saddled with guilt years on.

That kid who pulled the chair may have this come back to haunt him. It is a terrible system that allows this. Victims may want REVENGE but they need SUPPORT. I hope I am making sense to you.

BTW: this is what they asked Dukakis in his presidential "debate". He flunked because he did not answer it head on. 

Thank you

VPK

VPK, Rea:

"I'd say: "touch my daughter". And I'll pay you back."

Isn't that contradictory to the position of "No one should do it" which I agree with that is no one should do it.

But some how I guess when it becomes personal, we can't be as forgiving can we. BTW, there is no pun intended here as I have often thought if I can forgive any one who touches my family and I don't think I can.

Incidentally, we just watched a movie a few nights ago which I highly recommend it. "Secret in their eyes" , (foreign film) look it up and rent it.

DA: I know we have professional killers in Iran (called Basij/Sepah) but other then that, leaving our revenge to "professional killers"?!?!?!?!? Why not just do away with this and hire a professional hit man?

Faramarz jaan,

Indeed very sad and tragic, but almost all domestic violence are this way. I watched her trial (posted here) and one could see her love and loyalty to him even after such betrayal by him.

Mehrdad

VPK

We cross posted. Just as I quoted you from another blog.

Sad and Tragic

Mehrdad Jaan,

I came across this picture of Shahla. It tells quite a story!

//www.footballmedia.net/articles.asp?id=4955

There's something VPK mentioned in another blog

Touch my family. And I'll pay you back.

I'd say: "touch my daughter". And I'll pay you back.

And that is precisely the issue here. Don't let me take revenge !

No body

I agree with Rea that no one should do it. Specially the "victim". Murder rots the soul from Inside. That is one reason Islamists have no soul left. Because through years of murder they have given up all of their humanity if they ever had any. Remember: those who live by the sword die by the sword.

People who participate in this will end up suffering one way or other. The last thing a victim needs is the burden of another persons life.

"... who should really carry out the execution"

None, Bavafa. None ! 

;) I can't even lie back and

open my mouth at the dentist!

Now, obviously Capital Punishment is just barbaric, but here's the first problem with those you mentioned to carry out the IN/"justice" .

Imagine if everyone who eats other animals than humans, basically condemning them to death for their own pleasure alone,   were in charge of killing  them. The inhumanity  inflicted on the  now victims might even  be accidental, but unbelievably cruel.  Better to have a professional.A blunt guillotine can't have been much fun.

"The shorter the life, the longer the death."

Yes

IF it is anyone of the terrorist mebers of the Islamic Republic such as the names  in my trial and execution list then I will be happy to pull the chair and put the noose round their necks. For Ahmadinejad or the terrorist Larijani brothers I would pay for the privilege! 

For Neda soltani ,Shahla. and the thousands of other young Iranians that have fallen at the hand of this evil regime. 

//iranian.com/main/blog/simorgh5555/membe...

DA: I have never been good at multi tasking :)

Mehrdad

Either

allah, or the islamic imam who issued the killing order.  :-)

Oh , Bavafa!

Thank you for the comic relief. ('So needed a good giggle today.) Your Freudian slip:

"But first let me condom the vast killing "

I'll get to your very interesting blog matter a bit later.

"The shorter the life, the longer the death."