Ari Siletz

To 'vildemose'

Your responses are among select few that are logical and more meaningful than many others.
On all open blog sites, intellectually diverse group of folks post comments.  I never respond to any comments posted about my responses, here or anywhere else, unless I find the content of value.  The analogy I use is the barking dog: If a dog barks at me, should I bark back?  Of course this is rhetorical in nature, at least for me. :-)
Happy smiles to you,
Sean

ari, seanj

i agree with your points; although, it doesn't explain why shi'tes differ from other moslems in terms of depiction of human figures.  regarding your point 3: i don't think any of khomeini's people ever read satanic verses let alone understand it before khomeini issued the fatwa for rushdie's death.  i think that many of the hardcore moslem fanatics that protest against the cartoons are not literate and therefore more affected by pictures.

seanj,

i don't think that all moslems are offended by these cartoons.  and if artists were mindful of the sensitivities of every person, then the arts media would be reduced to a fraction of what it is.  however, if most people are offended by a certain depiction, then it would be considered poor taste and people would not support such statement resulting in artists not depicting such figures.

i would be impressed by conscientious moslems if they protested child marriages, stoning of women, execution of children, honor killings...  why don't we ever see such protests? which practice do you think is more vile? any thoughts?

bavafa: Whatever dear...

bavafa: Whatever dear...

Vildemose:

Either I need to go and smoke some goodies to come to your level or you need to sober up and restate what you want to say that it would make sense. Till then… have a good time with it.

Mehrdad

seanj: I will not sink to

seanj: I will not sink to your level by calling you names. Move on...

‘When people are told

‘When people are told that they cannot freely re-examine the stories of themselves, and the stories within which they live, then tyranny is not very far away’--Salaman Rushdi

Bavafa: slamming me willy nilly is not going to change the abysmal state of affairs for the muslims, Is it??

to vildemose

"So, what do the offended Muslims do? They attack Jews. They attack a
single event of genocide in Europe as an equivalence to making fun of a
prophet.


Surely the response of any rational, logical person would be to make fun
of Jesus or Moses"

What a stupid and arrogant argument. Who are you to decide what should or should not  be offeding to others?  Why should a black person feel offended when they're called "niggers"? The word nigger just means "black" but even the use of that word in public is illegal in a democratic country like the US. If you call a black person nigger, you will be in serious trouble with the law. Why? because black people THEMSELVES feel offended by the word, YOU do not get to dictate what should or should not be offending to other minorities. 

Jews are particularly sensitive about the holocaust issue. Because the holocaust is part of their collective identity. So questioning the holocaust has become illegal is Europe. But other ethnic groups in the world, who have also been victim of genocide, might not feel the same way about their experience. So, it is not illegal in europe to question let's say the scale of the genocide in Rwanda or Darfur or Armania...

So, why is it that you get to tell muslims what they should or should not get offended about?

Hello Marjaneh

Well, I am smiling as usual as I read your response.  I was wondering this morning if you would visit and write a comment, and you did.  :-)
Your response is real cool, especially about 'hating' people, one at a time, or...  I personally follow a monthly schedule.
I do miss Monty Python though.
Have a great evening across the Big Pond.
Sean-Smile-a-Lot, aka Mr. Raoul ... :-)

to Raoul1955

Racism is not just about biological "race", it is also about targetting ethnic groups and religious minorities. It is also about systematically putting pressure on a specific group. When Hitler persecuted the Jews wasn't he being a little "racist"? Is Judaism a race according to you?? 

Muslim is an "identity" and when you are insulting and propagating hatred against Islam you are insulting the core identity of many people. It might be part of someone's identity and not the entire identity, but it is nonetheless an important element of how many people define themselves. So, when there is a systematic hate propaganda against them, it IS racism.

And my reaction to Dariush Kadivar was perfectly normal. Wouldn't you be terribly offended if people organized Kourosh cartoon competition, where Kourosh was depicted in insulting and degrading manners? 

Come on people! what is wrong with you? don't you have any friends, relatives, family members who practice Islam? Are they all intolerent terrorists? Why do you feel the need to constantly insult, provoke and hurt them? 

As I agree with OnlyIran

As I agree with OnlyIran that Muslims around the world need to chill out a bit and not take things so damn seriously and/or use violence as the first order of business/retaliation.

However it seems Vildemose has missed the whole notion of making a mockery of ones secret belief or event is wrong and hurtful, the mockery of "Holocaust research" was a proof for that.

Mehrdad

HG

 You raise a core question. Exploring-- but not answering--the question of why drawings provoke more than words:

1. We saw an example of the vulnerability of images to insults last Ashura in Iran when accusations and counter-accusations were flying about who tore up Khomeini posters. Following Magritte's point in The Treachery of Images, our minds confuse the image with the object. Even among Shiites, depicting Khomeini in helpless paper form was as though Khomeini himself had been rendered helpless against assault.

2. Moses reacted violently when he came down from the mountain to see that the Israelites had created the Golden Calf. The belligerence of Islam towards visual representation carries over from the religion's biblical roots.   

3. Words do cause similar hoopla when they appear in art form, especialy when done competently. An example is Salman Rushdie's Satanic Verses. It's just that words are a slower medium of insult because a) fewer people read b) it takes a long time to read and digest what was said, and c) a cartoon delivers its message in a few seconds like a fast heroin fix. 

Monty Python, that's what Islam needs

and Political Islam should just jolly well behave itself.

I seriously don't give a damn if those cartoons are art or whatever the heck else.

Most European countries had managed to keep religion -all of the lala lands- out of the public realm, for most of the part. It used to be a private affair, great for a giggle at Christmas.

That's what Islam needs.  A good giggle.

Monty Python for Islam! No more flying carpets! Flying Circus, please!

Every fascism is an index of a failed revolution - Walter Benjamin

P.S. For the record:

I do NOT hate Muslims (or other religious loons). Quite frankly, that's beyond stupid. How do some
people manage to hate 1billion people? Is that one at a time? Is there a weekly schedule?

Hamsadeh Ghadimi

I agree,  

Opinions on art are subjective.   

I never mentioned anything about such art being band and would certainly not side with a bunch of Muslim fanatics, nor would I side with a wana be opportunist that would want to come across as an artist, make a name and buck for himself.  

Both camps make me want to puke!  

I simply stated my opinion and view of the matter, hate breads hate and the way I see it we don’t need more of that in the world.  

I personally don’t see any TRUTH in organized religion today, whatever the brand; it’s all about politics, and gaining power and control over wealth and resources, and wanting to have control and an upper hand over another.  

If we have Muslim fanatics, we also have Jewish fanatics, Christen fanatics, the KKK and the list goes on.  

The way I see it the Islamic fanatics and these so called artist are all the same, they bring no constructive value to the world!  

As readers and viewers we are all entitled to our opinions, you call it art, I call it crap, I say potato you say potato.  

With all respect, I will not be responding to any more comments on this subject, it’s time for me to go to work and put some bread on the table.  

Have a great day ;) 

FYI/Iran decertifies “Certified Copy” for Juliette Binoche

Iran decertifies “Certified Copy” for Juliette Binoche costume

Retaliation by the Islamists

onlyIran: That is so true. Even the Islamists who have Launched the "Research Holocaust Day" realize that.

So, what do the offended Muslims do? They attack Jews. They attack a single event of genocide in Europe as an equivalence to making fun of a prophet.

Surely the response of any rational, logical person would be to make fun of Jesus or Moses. But then they realize that even the most fundamentalist of jews and christians  wouldn’t give a hoot.

It just shows how inherently evil some fundamentalist Islamist are that their response is to attack Jews.

FYI/Marjane Satrapi : "Art is Not Democratic" (Avignon Forum)

Art is Not a Democratic Concept but an Individualistic One ...

Marjane Satrapi : "Art is Not Democratic" (Avignon Forum - 2009)

Pers66

  As you mentioned you googled mosses cartoons and found 107,000 results in 0.16 seconds, but I don’t remember any of them making news headlines or causing controversy and hateful reactions like this.   

Really?  Did you go through ALL 107,000 of them?  I went through a dozen and could find a few like this one:

//www.jewcy.com/files/102603403_8d00edf732.jpg

The problem is not that there aren't derogatory stuff about Jesus and Moses.  There are thousands of films, cartoons, stories, animation, etc. that make fun of both.  The problem in denial, like you're engaged in here.  Instead of trying to justify irrational rage, why don't you address the core issue, which the dominance of orthodox thought over the Muslim world.  The Muslim world needs to reform.  It needs a renaissance and that will not come about with denials.   

pers66

opinions on art are subjective.  if i don't like certain art or subject of art, it would not be wise for me to advocate end of such expression.  it would also be meaningless if i say this art is bad, or this is not art.  i can say that i don't like it or it's stupid or whatever but the end result is expression of my opinion and not an absolute judgement.

i don't like gory movies.  should it be banned?  should i say that this is not movie and just crap on film?  you don't view depiction of religious figures as art. should everyone think the same?  would they be inferior to you if they don't think the same way as you do?

draw mohammad day, seems to me, as a stance for the rights of artists who have come under attack and in some instances killed for their work.  if there wasn't such violence and threats against artists for their expression by fanatic muslims, we would not have such day.

Hamsade Ghadimi jaan,

I love art and would and totally respect the right of an artist to have freedom of expression….but I don’t view such crap as art!  

Art should have a universal language that promotes a feeling of joy or thought provoking enlightment for ALL its viewers.  

This is political racism and the opportunistic propaganda of hate hiding behind the notion of art. As you mentioned you googled mosses cartoons and found 107,000 results in 0.16 seconds, but I don’t remember any of them making news headlines or causing controversy and hateful reactions like this.   

Honestly, when I look at cartoons like this, be it from mosses, Jesus, Mohammad or….it really doesn’t come across as art to me; it only makes me feel that someone hates someone and dishing out an insult.  

This type of propaganda only makes one feel good if they hate the other camp on the other end!  

It’s the intension of the artist that reflects a sertin quality of energy out in the world.  

Perhaps a good example would be when we are listening to different types of music, some give you joy, some make you feel sad, some make you feel exited, some lifts your spirit and gives you positive energy and some may drive you crazy and agitate you in a universal way.  

Some movie clips will excite you, some will give you peace, some will make you cry, some will make you horney and some will scare you and some will agitated you and create tension in you, some will make you angry, and some will simply make you feel indifferent!  

It’s the thought and intension of the artist when creating the art that will reflect and effect the viewer of listener with a certain quality of energy and feeling… it’s all intentional, it is made to make you feel and react in a certain way ;)  

That’s what visual arts and advertising is all about!

To 'seanj'

islam is NOT a race.
Your reaction to Darius Kadivar is exactly what makes us detest islamic folks.

Muslim folks are intolerant, violent, insecure, and are always ready to jump on people who express thoughts or opinions different from theirs.
Cheers,
Sean

Pers66 is right!

The moment someone dares to draw a cartoon of Moses," half of Europe go bankrupt(!) and down the toilet in less than month", massive demonstrations by kafanpooshaan on the streets of Jerusalem, and hell, probaby a bunch of suicide attacks by radical jews. All hell will break loose.

Yeah I can see that.

And we certainly don't want that to happen. So let us all back off, and refrain from drawing Moses cartoons.

pers66

i googled moses cartoons and i found 107,000 results in 0.16 seconds.  i think the intention is not necessarily evil but a defense of artists who can be persecuted for the crime of making art. 

thanks for the

thanks for the though-provoking blog ari.  i had no idea may 20 was draw mohammad day. the evil ani-islamic western media dropped the ball on this one. 

as most of us know, there's a debate even within moslems whehter one can depict mohammad.  the shi'tes do, the sunnis don't.  in fact, the mohammad pendant must be the third best selling pendant in iran for the fashionable islamist (after ali and allah).  therefore, shi'tes practice of depiction of muhammad is considered sacreligious by the non shi'te moslems.  here's a non-inflammatory depiction of muhammad found on the web.

//inewp.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Maome.jpg

as far as insulting muhammad, there's not much hoopla when the insults are in the form of words; however, when there's a cartoon, some corners of the islamic world can get so riled up that there are deaths as result of their own demonstrations through stampedes.  overall, there's much inconsistency in the reaction of islamists regarding depiction, and insulting of their prophet.  and the often violent reaction, or call for violent reaction of islamists in these instances demonstrate the point that some of these cartoons are trying to make.  so what is it?  does the cartoons make moslems violent or do the cartoons depict the violent culture of islam?  not to mention that pictures 1-3 presented in this blog don't even suggest a negative characteristic of muhammad. 

DK jan,

You are right from your perception which is mine also. Either ignore the insult or respond if you have a clever idea that uses the same medium. I personally ignore it simply because I am not an artist. But the burden is on the Muslim artists to counter that or ignore it as they wish. The goal should be to avoid stirring the trouble further up. Often people want to tweak things but out of ignorance they make things worse.

But aside from this intellectual blog that truly looks at this problem from an artistic view, which is not to be afraid to push the boundaries and raise awareness among ordinary people to how to look at art, I think ordinary people are far more impulsive regardless of their race, gender, religion and ethnicity.

WHAT A CHEAP SHOT….

A matter of perception or not, it’s the thought behind the intension that counts..

I wish they would dare appoint a “Draw Mosses day” and see half of Europe go bankrupt and down the toilet in less than month…but as usual those yellow bellies don’t have the balls for that kind of talk lol!

As far as I am concerned they can go gag on some beer, pork and potatoes and then go FTS.

God bless America.

From: Harry's Place

This is a cross-post from Ministry of Truth

Last week’s ‘Everybody Draw Mohammed Day‘ generated a number of depressinging stupid responses; nowhere more so than in Pakistan where the government resorted to blocking access to Facebook, Youtube, Flickr and parts of Wikipedia in an effort to ‘protect’ its citizens from the heinous sight of several thousand photoshopped stick-men with word ‘Mohammed’  scrawled underneath.

Less than a week later, a [Facebook]  group of fearless Islamic keyboard warriors has decided to fight back by declaring that the 30th June will be the first ‘Everybody Research the Holocaust Day‘…

If you hadn’t already guessed, what we have here is nothing more than another juvenile tit-for-tat exercise in Holocaust denial; one set up by an all-too obvious conspiracy nut in the mistaken belief that he’ll somehow provoke widespread offence and calls for his ridiculous little Facebook group to be shut down, thereby proving that we’re all just a bunch of Zionist-loving hypocrites who regard freedom of expression as a one-way street.

Now it seems to me that a bit of lesson in free speech is very much in order here, so if its an ‘Everybody Research the Holocaust Day’ that the members of this Facebook group want then let’s give them exactly what they’re asking for.

Between now and the 30th June, I’d like as many bloggers as possible to spend just a little bit of time researching the Holocaust.

This should not be too onerous a task as there’s no great shortage of fantastic online resources to draw on – just to get you started you could try the US Holocaust Memorial Museum, the USC Shoah Foundation Institute, the Holocaust History Project, the Holocaust Cybrary, HolocaustSurvivors.org and the Holocaust section of the Jewish Virtual Library and, of course, there’s a wealth of other information out there on teh Interwebs, only a Google/Bing/Yahoo search away.

//hurryupharry.org/2010/05/25/everybody-research-the-holocaust-day/

Midwesty Jaan in that case please explain to me why ?

The same Racist Euro Centric Mentality is hailed by IRI Apologists when they rush up to defend Iran's Nuclear Stance or Holocaust Conference:

Be it David Duke the American KKK :

David Duke Against War With Iran

Or France's Jean Marie Le Pen :

Jean Marie Le Pen celebrates the Anniversary of the Islamic Revolution at the Zahra Cultural Institute:

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI7z9JsK4NE&feature=related

Le Pen soutient la Palestine et l'Iran :

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eeQjxIjPp4

Jean Marie Le Pen Défend L'Iran et Le Hamas :

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZLpp3z9SY4&feature=related

It seems to me that the Real Problem is Not those who make fun of Religion (including at times with a racist inclination) but Muslims Incapacity to deal with discourse.

Europe had it's Religious Inquisition and overcame it with the Rennaissance. Christianity evolved maybe not in it's principles but at least in it's social behavior by returning religion and religious faith were it normally belongs: The Private Sphere.

HISTORY FORUM: Nader Naderpour on Iran's Constitutional Revolution and European Rennaissance (1996)

The argument that by making fun of Religion we are insulting those who have faith is truly pulling on an old cord ...or that it is jeapordizing personal Faith is ridiculous:

Those who believe in God, and I am one who does to your surprise probably should not be troubled in their convictions particularly in the face of humor.

In the end of the day it's their sense of humor vs Your Strong personal convictions.

The same can and should be said about political convictions. Whether you make fun of a King, Queen or Prime Minister or President of a Republic. In the end of the day it is about where You Stand and whether Your own convictions are strong enough even at the expense of turning down the radio or shutting down the Television set if a cartoon can irritate you for any given justified reason or not.

In the end of the day we are all hypocrites when it comes to humor. We laugh at what makes US or our likeminds laugh Not what may make Others laugh.

If someone is smart and talented he or she will come up with a counter argument or funny cartoon in response.

It's a Fair Fight !

You cannot blame someone for simply being imaginative and or talented or funny even it it may hurt your feelings or shake your convictions for that matter.

If these clowns are wrong what have you to risk ?

At worst They will go to Hell ...

Sorry but the so called "Racist" Argument in the end of the day is Pure Rubbish that comes up regularly amongst the likes of Tarik Ramadan ( Who by the way is Neither French Nor European but a Swiss Citizen but preaches about France's so called Racist attempts to ban the Burqa) as an argument when they run out of arguments !

midwesty

Most, actually ALL of the troubles of the world are caused by humans....LOL.  Being an opportunist is a natural part of being human. When a group of people take advantage of another group, because the first group is intellectaully superior and/or has moved beyond the crude (being polite here) mentality of the 2nd group,  the second group (one being milked) will respond by...eh...violence, where they should respond by bettering themselves, by education, by freedom and respect for one another and their rights, etc.......Then the first group...... then the 2nd group....

That is what we have now - in a nutshell...I really condensed this, but this mohammad thing is just a response in a long string of responses related to the above! It is not hard to trace back the origin that triggered the exchange, but that we leave for another session.

CoP 

____________

IRAN FIRST

____________

Sorry…

As a Baha’i, I’ve had countless debates with Muslims, Christians, Jews, Atheists, and others.  There are plenty of essential and substantial issues that can be pointed out and perhaps rejected.

Sorry, but I just fail to see the value of drawing Muhammad cartoons, or inserting a crucifix in a jar of urine, or burying Mary’s picture in pile of dung, etc..  

If nothing else, these are insulting to the arts!  Really, isn’t insulting what others regard as sacred, pointless and really childish?

I certainly do not condone the violent reactions either, but that’s the only reason such cartoons exist in the first place, isn’t it?

Anvar

P.S.:  I’m not a prude.  Gross depictions of my own religion’s founders are on many blogs on this very site and I’ve never complained or reacted negatively (violently) to them.  I do believe in freedom of expression.  However, as a category, I just think they’re all worthless.

COP,

Have you noticed, most of the troubles in the world are because of the opportunists?