Erdogan: Turkey will not allow attack on Iran from its territory

Turkey's Prime Minister interviewed by Farid Zakaria

27-Sep-2011
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Arj

Excellent point!

by Arj on

Dear VPK, couldn't have said it better. This Shaban Bimokh mentality is exported as we leave Iran for new lands, and keeps hunting us for the rest of our lives! However, suitability and climate of the hosting countries is a determining factor in perpetuation (or lacktherof) of this Shaban Bimokh mentality. For instance, those of us with a vigilante mentality, would find a natural evvironment in the U.S. For in the U.S., much like in IRI, wrapping oneself in the flag would provide one the excuse to dismiss others with whom one disagrees as "traitors" and "anti-American"! Yet, in countries such as those in Europe or even Canada, such intolerance and vigilante mentality is pushed to the margins of political scene!

I also agree with you that dissent is not necessarily a sign of hostility, but rather concern! That is why those regimes who suppress dissent as "unpatriotic" and "treasonous" are doomed to perish, as Shah's did and IRI will!


Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

Arj jan

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

 

You are right about being jumped on. But it is mostly here on IC. You may go on Huffington Post and criticize America all you want. Or on lots of other sites. Remember groups attract like minded. As one here said "birds of a feather fly together". It applies to the "America sacred" people here. It was really interesting reading CNN comments about the "hikers". The CNN readers were 90% critical of them. On IC if you dared criticize them you get crucified.

As if Iran has no right to its borders anymore. Fine America gave some of us the chance to find a new home. I am thankful. But that does not mean I am going to blindly support any American. Particularly when vast majority of Americans themselves don't. This to me is a leftover mentality of "support the authority". Let us face it many of us were brought up in Iran. If you criticized the Shah you got put away. Now if you criticize the Mollahs you get put away. That hammers it in our heads that criticism is dangerous. Besides many people in America are constantly told Iranians are inferior.  That makes people ashamed of who they are. Then they try making up for it by being extra "patriotic".

My idea of patriotism is to tell it as I see it. I used to support the Afghanistan war and that got me in trouble with my American liberal friends. Now I changed my mind because of the monumental failure it is. That is getting me in trouble with the right wing. For most part I just keep my opinions to myself in my real life. Used to be a big Democratic party supporter. But am so disgusted with them I told them to leave me alone last they phone me.


Arj

Re anti-Americanism

by Arj on

Dear VPK, My point was not just about McCain or hating America, or any other country. But rather American exceptionalism. That means, Americans see it fair to scorn and belittle every other nationality (well, almost...), yet when it comes to themselves, they cry foul and complain about anti-Americanism! As you see, many Irish don't like the British, yet you don't see anyone trying to snuff them for being "anti-British." Yet, if the same bunch had criticized the U.S., let alone hating it, they would be jumped at by a bunch of rabbid, right-wing wackjobs as "anti-American" as if they have committed a sacrilege!


AMIR1973

AO,

by AMIR1973 on

That is very interesting (and funny) about your cousin. Thanks for sharing...Mokhlesetam.


Anonymous Observer

Dear Amir

by Anonymous Observer on

Not quite.  He was born and raised here, so his Persian is not very good.  They actually made him take a Persian test...and he failed!! He wasn't going to tell me about it because he said that he will "never hear the end of it."  His father told me.  And he was right.  He never will, because I keep reminding him, in every conversation, that he can't speak Farsi. :-) When he was deployed to Afghanistan, I told him "good, may be you'll learn some Persian while you're there!"  All joking aside, though, he's a great and decent guy.  Where he is stationed in mostly Pashtun, although most also understand Farsi from what he tells me.   Interestingly, he says that he hides his Iranian background from the Pashtuns there as much as he can because they are not really that friendly to Iranians.   And yeah...there's always a conspiracy about someone attacking Iran.  And nothing is EVER our responsibility, and the great Islamic Republic is saving us from the evils of imperialism.   :-))   Be good. 


Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

Dear Arj

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

 

If you are not an American Citizen or resident you owe America no loyalty. When I became an American citizen I took an oath. Which is one I fully intend to keep and it  means I will tell them when they mess up.

But you have no such responsibility and the reason you could not betray America. Because you did not ever take an oath to be loyal to her. You are absolutely in your rights to be anti-American as I am to be anti-British. I have a lot of Irish American friends most of whom hate Britain. They have the right to do so because they did not take an oath to be loyal to her. 

Regarding McCain he is a jackass and I say it being an American citizen. You need not tell me about his sickening racist "song". Besides criticism is not the same as hating. My father criticizes me. I don't think he hates me.I hope not!


AMIR1973

Dear AO,

by AMIR1973 on

That's interesting. Has your cousin been asked to serve as a translator in Afghanistan (though I guess Pashto would be a problem).

As far as Afghanistan, (in addition to the mandatory oral pleasuring of American troops) the U.S. is currently in the process of breaking up the country into several different states. Just like they broke up Iraq into 3 separate states (and just like the U.S. plans to break up Iran, with only Khamenei and his gang standing in the way of their sinister designs)....


Anonymous Observer

Amir-e geraami- very funny - I have to say

by Anonymous Observer on

"BJs for American soldiers", etc.

My cousin is a U.S. Marine.  He served a year in Iraq, and is now in Afghanistan.  I have to say that in my many conversations with him, he has never mentioned that he has been on the receiving end of any such thing, despite what our knee jerk anti-American lunatics believe.  Ambushes, firefights, RPGs, mortars, yes.  BJ's..never!!! :-))

Be good my friend! 


Arj

Re anti-Americanism

by Arj on

Dear VPK, I meant to pose this question earlier, but due to distractions below, got side-tracked. However, as a non-resident of U.S. and one who have no loyalty towards America, I wonder why should I not have the right to be anti-American?! I do not consider myself to be one though, but I would support the right of those who do hold anti-American views! Every other country in the world has its foes, and as a matter of fact almost every other nation is the subject of contempt and degredation on a daily basis by the American media -- e.g. British for being unmanly and queer, French as cowards, Germans as fascists, Arabs and Middle Easterners as terrorists...! Why should America be an exception?! 

One may wonder why should there not be concepts such as anti-Frenchism or anti-Germanism to protect those nations from defemation? Especially considering America's less than perfect past and dark history (i.e. slavery, the native ethnic cleansings, Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Vietnem...) why should its critics be snuffed by such labels the way the opponents of IRI are supressed as "moaherbs?" 

Here is the Jackass, McCain joking about killing Iranians (and he's talking about the people without even differentiating between them and the regime!) by selling them more cigarettes:  //www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYedihiNKJg


Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

Amir since I seem to be shunned by the gang

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

 

Here we go with the post from my blog:

I just heard from Amir. He did not flag the post by SK who did it? Are
you brave enough to stand by your action? Or will you hide behind
anonymity. Come on show me who you are? 

  • Bozoryi gohari ast be kame shir; Ro khatar kon be jameh shir bejoy
  • Ya bozorgi o ez or nemat o jah; ya cho mardanat marg ro ya roy.

I wonder if the flagger was a none of the above.

 


Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

Amir

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

 

Thank you. My respect for you just went up a whole lot. I wish the person who did would come out and say it. I will openly call that person a "COWARD" if they don't admit to having flagged SK's comment.

If this is a reaons to ban me: Make my day!


AMIR1973

VPK,

by AMIR1973 on

In my almost 4 years on IC, I have only flagged a comment 1 or 2 times...and it was probably more than a year ago. It wasn't me who flagged that comment.


Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

Well said Arj

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

 

The Irony is that my own belief system is probably closer to Amir than you. But my attitude and approach is far closer to you. Respect for other points of view. Getting off the high horse. Not demanding total submission. 

These are qualities which transcend political ideology. That is why we are "birds of a feather". As long as we disrespect other points of view there will be war of ideas. Once we respect them there will be "exchange" of ideas. 

By the way Amir I have a question: did you flag the post by SK in my blog? I just want to know a yes or no. 


Arj

Re "philosophy"

by Arj on

Amir 19.., Ironically, it's the holier than thou, self-righteous attitude of the likes of Al-e Ahmad and Shariati which you share to judge others with whom you disagree that reminds me of what is wrong with our society!


AMIR1973

Arj,

by AMIR1973 on

The sort of "anti-imperialist" (or anti-U.S. or anti-Western or whatever you want to call it) viewpoint, rhetoric, and discourse that I believe you and some others on this blog and among our fellow Iranians engage in is way too reminiscent of the Al-e Ahmad/Shariati mindset for me. It is hard not to resent where this mindset and "philosophy" has landed Iran. Let's just agree to disagree. 


Arj

Re rhetoric

by Arj on

Dear Amir 19.., as far as I'm concerned, we're all here to exchange ideas and points of view rather than trying to win (that is if there's such thing!) an argument. Hence, last thing I have in my intentions is to deliberately offend anyone! Moreover, our friend, VPK and I have gotten in our share of heated debates while trying to maintain a minimum level of civilty!

However, going back to your original post, it contains rhetoric that did not have much to do with the direction of an otherwise civilized discussion by recycling the usual streotypes and diatribes such as "empty anti-Western slogans... and phony posturing about how the White Man... Great Satan... Zionists, etc, etc". So far as I know, no one even mentioned "zionism" or "Great Satan" before you did! Such trivialization methods are also used by supporters of IRI to pigeonhole critical views as anti-Islam and... The reality is that there are those who do not necessarily buy into either view, hence it's not a simple either/or game! Or as GWB put it: "You're either with us, or with the terrorists!!!" 


AMIR1973

Birds of a feather flock together...

by AMIR1973 on

I'm clearly not in the same intellectual class as either the Great VPK or Arj, with their masterful grasp of facts and logic. Whatever you gentlemen say is right. Take care.


Arj

Re literacy

by Arj on

Amir 19.., not that I intend to carry this conversation any furhter, for it has already been pointless and you have refuted what seemed to be your point numerous times as it is!

However, you of all people should be the last person bringing up the literacy issue considering the following as the title of your post: "Two of the only 3rd World Countries to reach 1st World status"!


Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

On Anti-Americanism

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

 

Before I go on I am a US citizen. I am not anti-American and often argue with left wing Americans about their genuinely anti-America attitudes. They label me pro-American. But the America I want is one where its people do well. Not have to worry about their retirement. Not worry about Social Security. Be safe that their tax is spent on them not on bird brained schemes in Libya or Afghanistan. Or to bribe Turkey and Pakistan to pretend to be "pro" America.

Now to the meat of it. I checked the link on anti-Americanism. The "Mural" is an official government thing not an indicator of Iranian peoples real feelings. Nevertheless it says "Marg bar America" and in English "Down with America". Which is usually mistranslated as "Death to America". Thankfully the mural correctly translates it. There is no "death" wish involved. Down with just means they want to put down a power they consider an opponent.

Here is the part about Japan and I quote: In Japan, objections to the behavior and presence of American military personnel are sometimes reported as anti-Americanism, such as the 1995 Okinawan rape incident.

So I gather being oppose to rape is anti-Americanism! What do you want them to do say "thanks for raping our young girls here are more?" Duh! Of course they will be angry the girl was raped!

About South Korea: On the same link there is reference to a popular song named *** USA. That from the nation so often sighted as "pro American". Is that because they are Islamic radicals. Or are paid by IRI? 

It would be nice if the poster actually read his link before posting it!


Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

Arj

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

 

Khoneto kasif nakon. It is pointless debating with this person. I tried and gave up but be my guest.


Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

AI & Fair

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

 

I wonder do you live in the USA? I do. and believe me it is a corrupt at they come. Some of you who live in Europe have governments who may care a bit about your opinion; ours does not . I know I have met congressmen and congresswomen. I know a lot about the system here. It runs on money. People vote but if they don't like the results they don't count them.

There are other ways for example "inner cities" have 9 hour long lines with the polling station closing in 3 hours. Tough luck to the other 6 hours of people in line. Police regularly decide to put check points around black neighborhoods on election day in Florida. Republicans send fake papers telling Democrats the wrong days and votig place.

To top it the "Supreme Court" appointed G.W. Bush president. Despite the fact all evidence and popular vote was for Gore. No one gets prosecute for any of this. Fine it is not as bad as IRI but it is hardly a democracy. More like Iran when Shah was around. Before you jump on me; I said I was fine with Iran with Shah! But I did not claim it was a democracy. In fact I would prefer Iran with Shah than America now.


AMIR1973

Arj,

by AMIR1973 on

Again, is it a nation's ingenious and industriosness that causes their progress or hosting American military bases (or as you put it, "the U.S. aegis")?

Do you suffer from a lack of basic literacy? I have already written and repeated that (in recent history) both factors play a role. 

 

"In spite" of the high oil prices?! 

I wrote that Iran saw a rise in standards of living starting in the 1950s and 1960s. The rise in oil prices occurred in 1973. Iran's GDP was higher than that of Soiuth Korea in 1970, again before the rise in prices. 

 

What is anti-Americanism?  

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Americanism

(I saw that mural in the picture when I visited Tehran in 2003/2004; if I remember correctly, I believe it is Karim Khan Zand Ave -- I made a point of asking the cab driver).

 

//www.amazon.com/Anti-Americanism-Jean-Francois-Revel/dp/1893554856 

 

 


Arj

Re the Rhetoric

by Arj on

Amir 19.., do you suffer from ADD? If my rhetoric distracts you, please igonre the rhetoric and just answer my questions. Again, is it a nation's ingenious and industriosness that causes their progress or hosting American military bases (or as you put it, "the U.S. aegis")? For if the "U.S. aegis" is the cause, it should've worked for Egypt too! And if a nations' produstivity is the main factor, then the "U.S. aegis" does not seem to work everywhere!

And what does Iran's GDP (whether under the Shah or IRI) have to do with anything but recycling the oil revenue that make you claim; "Its GDP was larger than that of South Korea and its GDP per capita ranking among nations considerably higher than it is now. This is in spite of the fact that the Shah enjoyed high oil prices only from 1973-1978."?

"In spite" of the high oil prices?! Please, enlighten me as to what innovations were the driving force behind this increase in GDP other than the oil revenue? What did/do we produce other than petrolium products to make up the backbone of our economy?!

P.S. Enough with this exceptionalism already! What is anti-Americanism? why should't there be anti-Frenchism, Anti-Britishism or Anti-Germanism too if that's the case?! I don't get it, what makes America exceptional from anywhere else?


AMIR1973

Arj,

by AMIR1973 on

You, on the other hand, make lots of sense with your "complex" and sophisticated political observations about "sucking up", "bending over backwards", "appeasing the U.S.", "BJs for American soldiers", etc. Are you addicted to trite "leftish"-sounding rhetoric, sloganeering, and posturing? Judging by your posts here, that appears to be the case. Try to argue, if you are capable, without resorting to anti-U.S. cliches. And who said "the Egyptians are every bit as hard working as any other nation"? Based on what measure? Based on the productivity of their economy? Their recent innovations in science and technology? (Which are essentially non-existent among Arab states. Of course, it's the fault of the CIA-Mossad-MI6 conspiracy that that is the case). The fate of Egypt, like that of other nations, is in the hands of its 85 million people. If Egypt is in a bad state, Egyptians are to blame (for the most part). If foreign investors found Egypt to be a profitable place to invest their money, they would do so! After all, they are not philanthropists; they're in it for the money.

This ergo, raises the question as to what makes you think that Iran (oil revenues notwithstanding) would be faring any better than Egypt? 

From the 1950s-1970s, Iran (notwithstanding all the political and socioeconomic shortcomings of the Pahlavi regime) saw the most rapid expansion in its standards of living and the creation of a middle class. Its GDP was larger than that of South Korea and its GDP per capita ranking among nations considerably higher than it is now. This is in spite of the fact that the Shah enjoyed high oil prices only from 1973-1978. Corrected for inflation and population growth, Iran's GDP per capita and average income have either stagnated since 1979 or even fallen somewhat. 

 

 


Arj

Re U.S. relations...

by Arj on

Amir 19.., now you are not making any sense! Gamal Abdolnaser has been dead for more than forty years! And since his death, the two Egyptian presidents (Sadat and Mobarak) have been bending over backwards (i.e. making peace with Israel, helping Islamists when in U.S. interests and fighting Islamists when not, enforcing sanctions on Palestinians...) to appease the U.S. And despite your suggestions, Egyptians are every bit as hard working as any other nation. Yet, their economy is a basket case. Why, one may ask?

It's due to lack of foreign investments, unlike in South Korea and Taiwan that were flooded with such investments. Why is there a lack of investment?! It's due to the U.S. strategic interests which sees Israel as its main and unrivalled ally! In other words, it's been in America's geo-political interests to boost the economies of its strategic partners (i.e. S. Korea and Taiwan) and not that of Egypt which is in close proximity to its closer ally, Israel. Now, Egyptians could've worked 24/7 and/or provided every U.S. soldier on their soil with BJs, and still be in the same situation they are now. 

This ergo, raises the question as to what makes you think that Iran (oil revenues notwithstanding) would be faring any better than Egypt? Especially since it was already once under the auspecis of the"U.S. aegis," what caused it to fall out? Not to mention that American economy, already laying in ruins, is itself in dire need of rescuing!


Artificial Intelligence

Fair you got it exactly right

by Artificial Intelligence on

When you say the following:

"There is no perfect system, but the ones where more voices are allowed
to be heard are less easier to hijack than the ones where few (or just
one) voices are allowed. "

Even though the US has a 2 party system, federalism divides power into many different levels. In addition to the Federal system, the States have their own rights and constitutions & governors; and there are local governments with mayors, state courts, local courts & local police forces.....Power is not in the hands of the few and citizens have many different avenues to have their voices heard. America is not perfect but I have not seen a better/fairer system than the USA...

 

 


Roozbeh_Gilani

Turkey the "Regional Power"??!!

by Roozbeh_Gilani on

Here we have Turkey,  a basicaly 3rd world dictatorship, whose daily existance depnds on massive sums of US $ aids, who has been waiting for decades now to be accepted by the europeans as a "European nation" into the mess otherwise known as EU, whose incompetent army can not defeat a few thousand lightly armed Kurdish gureillas and had to get the MOSSAD to capture the PKK leader for her in east africa, now "guaranteeing" the islamist regime that no attack would be launched from it's soil against Islamist Regime!

What  a joke indeed!  

"Personal business must yield to collective interest."


AMIR1973

Arj,

by AMIR1973 on

In other words, you acknowledge that hosting U.S. military bases and cowering under the auspices of "U.S. aegis" does not gurantee progress!

Guarantee? Who said anything about guarantees? In politics, as in life, there are no guarantees. Only possibilities. The South Koreans and Taiwanese have used their good relations with the U.S. to build prosperous industrialized democracies (for which they deserve credit), and the Egyptians have not (for which they deserve something other than credit). And let's not forget that under the Arab nationalist demagogue Nasser, there were tens of thousands of Soviet militray and other advisors in Egypt (and Soviet-Arab cooperation being what it is, Nasser and the other Arabs suffered humiliating military defeats at the hands of Israel -- so much for "friendship" with the USSR). And what's this business about "cowering"? To the extent that the South Koreans and the Taiwanese "cower", it's because of their North Korean and Chinese adversaries and not because of their U.S. allies.


Fair

True, but...

by Fair on

Those very elite that you talk about in the end have to convince enough people to vote the "right" way.  In other words, the FINAL WORD comes from the vote of the people.  They have to spend money and effort and win over the electorate (or a large enough portion of them) Those elite cannot decree directly and override the vote of the people.  The religious elite in a religious government can.

That is the big difference.

 

There is no perfect system, but the ones where more voices are allowed to be heard are less easier to hijack than the ones where few (or just one) voices are allowed.


Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

Fair Jan

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

 

I don't know which nation you live in. But I live here in America. The ultimate choice is not made by people. It is made by a very small elite who fund and promote candidates. These are the big money donors and media owners.

When someone goes off the "track" they are ridiculed and hounded. When Ross Perot correctly pointed out the danger of NAFTA he got ridiculed. There was a "debate" between him and Gore. I watched it and Perot clearly had the right idea. All the talking heads said "Gore won". Perot was ridiculed and the result was NAFTA and a giant loss of jobs to Mexico. Another one was Howard Dean who had some very good ideas when running for president {he has since become a MEK supporter so I no longer respect him}. He also got ridiculed out for the infamous "scream"

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5FzCeV0ZFc .

In America we get two candidates for President. A far right winger and a moderate right winger.