Iranian of the Day

Dark vs light

If I remember my Shahnameh there were two kinds of Div. The dark in the south and white in the north. The meanest was supposed to be "Diveh Sepid" so much for hating "Dark" people! 

Race

Race is classification of humans into large and distinct populations or groups by factors such as heritable phenotypic characteristics or geographic ancestry, but also often influenced by and correlated with traits such as appearance, culture, ethnicity, and socio-economic status. In the early twentieth century the term was often used, in its biological sense, to denote genetically divergent human populations which can be marked by common phenotypic traits.

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_%28classificatio...

One More "Extra Credit" Homework Assigment

Where did India's ancient color-caste system come from?

Why are Iranians so obsessed with skin color, and why do they prefer light skin even from ancient times (remember the story of Leili and Majnoon, where people thought Majnoon was crazy because he loved Leili - who was dark?). 

Homework For Anyone Who is Serious About Studying Aryan History

I'm no expert (I'll leave that act to the Iranian political commentators).

But I'm intrigued by the excerpt I read from the article by Vincent Sarich and Frank Miele, which quotes the Vedic writings with references by the Aryans to their enemies as being "flat nosed" and "dark skinned".

//www.redorbit.com/news/science/86836/a_new_perspective_on_race 

Can anyone find some more really good sources or references for this?

Thanks.

PS: 

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigveda

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dasa 

//books.google.com/books?id=H3lUIIYxWkEC&lpg=PA192&ots=xd5z6SdXiH&dq=online%20rigveda%20nosed&pg=PA192#v=onepage&q&f=false 

Vedas=Hinduism, Bible(Old Testament)=Judaism

So what?

What does this prove?

The Bible is also full of racism towards Canaanites, gentiles and the enemies of the Israelites.

It makes distinctions based on lineage, tribe, and descent. 

Religion is not necessarily free of such things.

In the case of Judaism, the Bible (Old Testament) is a religious text - it is also an ancient historic autobiography of a people. 

So what's surprising about racial references in Vedic writings?

(PS: I have a degree in Biochemistry and Molecular Biology) 

Wrong: They weren't a race. Please read earlier comment

by BoosBoos on Mon Aug 29, 2011 05:51 PM PDT Aryans are an ethno-linguistic group (language and tribal group), with a unique cultural heritage. Aryans have never been and are not a 'race'; simply because races exist doesn't mean Aryans were a separate race.    ======== If you're curious about 'blondism' take a class on DNA - not Aryan studies - to better understand how the DNA of parents determines a child's hair and eye color.  

If the Aryans Weren't a Race, and There Were No Aryan Migrations

... how do we interpret the occurence of isolated remnants of ancient populations of blond people in Kashmir, Western China, Central Asia, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iran - smack in the middle of darker people?

Vedas = Hinduism / Focus on Armenian Genocide

Vedas are the writings of Hindus that contain mantras recited as prayers; it's the literature of Hinduism.  You're citing that for "proof" of how ALL of the Aryans supposedly viewed themselves.  Total Bull-Jive technique.  

Focus on the Ottoman-Turks genocide of Armenians, Kurds, and Assyrians if you have no other sources.  

What Are the Vedas?

People who want to talk about a subject like the Aryans should know about this. 

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedas

Which spokesman?

1. Which spokes-person for the Aryans said that?  

2. All of the Aryans said that?  Show some proof. 

It shows the pure nonsense of your suggestion.  Good luck. 

How Did the Aryans View Themselves?

We can say whatever we want about them.

What matters is how they viewed themselves.

Here is an excerpt from Vedic writings, where they describe their enemies:

"...the hated broad-nosed Dasas, the dark- skinned worshippers of the phallus.”

Note: "Dasas" meant "dark".

This probably survived into modern Farsi as "doshman". 

//www.redorbit.com/news/science/86836/a_new_perspective_on_race 

So if the Aryans highlighted their enemy's racial differences with themselves when describing them, this shows that they cared about such distinctions and viewed themselves as coming from a different race.

Right?

Aryan

Aryans are a ethno-linguistic, (language and tribal group), with a unique cultural heritage.

Aryans have never been and are not a 'race'; simply because races exist doesn't mean Aryans were a separate race.

Were the Aryans a Race? Did Gobineau Invent This Idea?

According to the Vedas, the Aryans described their enemies thusly:

"The hated broad-nosed Dasas, the dark- skinned worshippers of the phallus."

Note: the word "dasas" originally meant "dark", but it has probably survived in modern Farsi as "doshman", or "enemy". 

//www.redorbit.com/news/science/86836/a_new_p...

We obviously can't blame Gobineau for this.

Boosboos

I am getting tired of going round the circle. Please read my previous comments and you get the reply to your last comment.

It's a good thing...

... everything we've said is there black on white...

Indo-Aryan Languages - Cambridge Univ. Press

@ Divaneh:  

I didn't cite Wikipedia as a source of authority - I still agree that Wiki can be manipulated by anyone-&-everyone and is unreliable.  What I hoped you understood was that the cover of books on Indo-Aryan languages have been scanned and placed there.  It's the book itself I want you to focus on, not the original contributions to Wikipedia.  

Here's another link with a picture of the book by Cambridge University -- you can see that it clearly is titled: "Indo-Aryan Languages." and authored by Colin P. Masica.    

//books.google.com/books?id=J3RSHWePhXwC&printsec=frontcover&dq=indo-aryan+languages#v=onepage&q&f=false 

Cheers. 

P.S. You will notice that Parnam argues that Aryan languages went out of existence, and the book I cited (on page 1) speaks of the "sheer numerical weight of the populations" speaking Aryan languages today.  Remember, my objection is to people making false claims about the non-existence of Iranian-Aryan heritage and pretending Iranian-Aryan heritage is some how linked to Hitler (it's not). 

FYI: On the Behistun Inscription you will also see a reference to Ariaramnes (Old Persian: Ariyâramna); this was the great-grandfather of Darius the Great and his name also indicates his Aryan heritage.  

Lie and fabrication of Iran history hurts

The funny part is Zia Ebrahimi is living in England and is NOT willing to live under Islamic rules even one day and talking about mental dislocation. Can you see hypocracy parham?  Hypocracy is hurting our nation big time. His quote from Gnoli was fabricating what the guy was saying. Bashing shah and his idea of progressing Iran to the level of European countrie (calling mental dislocation)  and promoting barbaric laws of Arabs (apparently this one is right mental location for Iranians). ops.... Arab is also mental dislocation, but Ebrahimi doesn't say anything about that.  Do you see what is going on? I was wondering how much bonus he received from Iran embasy in London by promoting ruling stinky mullahs in Iran.(right mental location).  

Now, back to our discussion, in Apartheid regime which was the most racist state in the history of human being, Iranians were classified as a "White" because of their Aryan ancestories.  That didn't include Arabs or Indian or Pakistani. After 6 P.M no Arabs, Indian And pakestani were not allowed to go to downtown area of Cape town or Johansburg except Europeans and Iranians. Similarly in restuarants, taxi, hotels classified white (Blanca). On the top of taxis you would have seen Blanca and mio blanca (none white). It was Europeans and Iranians were in the same category.  We are not passing moral judgement here, just showing what was going. Similar situation in the U.S. Back in 1991 once George Bush signed the law of "affirmative action". That law didn't include Iranians because of their Aryan ancestories. Iranians couldn't get the benefit that none white people could get. That covered people of colors which included Arabs and Pakistanis or filipino, but NOT Iranians. Now, you probably wondering why. Do you homework my friend and let me know why.

Dear Siavash, Leyli was a woman

Please read the comments carefully before you jump in. The whole long debate was about the validity of the Aryan phrase in the Naghsh Rostam inscriptions. The part that you have quoted from me is about a different inscriptions (Baghestan or as known by most people Beeston) and is in reply to Boosboos who claimed that inscription also includes the Aryan phrase.

What I can't understand is that why you pure Aryans are so bad in comprehension :)

Boosboos

This is almost a joke. First you refuse the Wikipedia as unreliable because everyone can write in there. Next you use it as your reference and claim the reverse. It is not a reliable source. Unfortunately your other reference is also from a low grade establishment and is not good. I think I am not going to waste any more time on this debate but will continue to look for a proper source to clarify the matter.

Truth hurts

Doesn't it? : )

Parham's hesitation, Ebrahimi supporting rulling mullahs in Iran

 "..the incapacity of most iranians to engage with arguments instead of resorting to manichaean ad hominem attacks (with hardly a handful of categories: pan-turkist, agent of the Islamic Republic, etc" Parham

and below is what Ebrahimi subtlety support rulling mullahs:

Divaneh's question

 "اگر بند دیگری هم هست که به نظر شما از آریایی بودن صحبت می کند بفرمایید تا ذکر کنم. " Divaneh

"I am Dariush, the great king, the king of kings
The king of many countries and many people
The king of this expansive land,
The son of Wishtaspa of Achaemenid,
Persian, the son of a Persian,
from the Aryan race."

I know who I am ...

But according to Parnam's scholarly explanation he wants us to be Arabs and Turks (because they exist in his mind) but he does not want us to admit we come from Aryan traditions, languages, and cultures  (which for some inexplicable reason don't exist in his mind).

--------------------------------------------------

" Parham on Sat Aug 20, 2011 01:37 PM PDT Why Aryans don't exist but Arabs and Turks do? Because that's the way it is! "

-------------------------------------------------- 

Seriously, *uniting* with anyone that wants to De-iranicize my country or people is not an option for me.  If I wanted to follow Parnam's advice and join his recognized categories of *Arab* and *Turk*, I could just move to Saudi Arabia or Turkey. 

Don't pick on mongols, they gave rise to JM.

Where as Aryans gave rise to.... shahanshahi.

Seriously, all this joking around is pure nonsense, 

who are we today?

what culture are we and who do we aspire to become?

I get this funny feeling none of us may ever see iran again at this rate, we need to unite somehow.

I say we are all from amoeba can we all unite behind that?

Amoeba were good cells, they never raped no body, prevented their neighbour from expressing themselves, just look at what amazing specimens they gave rise to.  We are like Uber Amoeba, Superman! Yeah! What ever we do lets not identify ourselves with islam or religion, please I don't think we can afford to go down that path.  Lets face it, on the surface everyone in iran says they are muslim, but very few of them have any respect for it or live by it willingly, with the exception of the terror over everyones heads islam is toast.  

famous film quote got flagged

so this post has been edited i.e. deleted 

One thing is for sure...

.. Aryans might not exist anymore, but it seems Mongols will never cease to.

Anyway,

"Do you also think of Hitler when you run into anyone named Adolf?"

YES! And I rest my case! : )

Regarding the Nazi

Iranians were generally unaware of Nazi practices. The main reason some Iranians symphatized with Germany was anger at Britain. Iranians did not like what Britain had done to Iran and were glad to see Germans beat them up.

When Iranians did find out Nazi practices they were horrified. Many Iranians of power actively undermined Nazi genocidal practices. They used the "Aryan" thing to rescue innocent people. A famous one is Abdol Hossein Sardari. Who as the man in charge of Iranian consular office in Paris in 1941 issued many visas to both Iranian and non Iranian Jews. He used the Aryan thing to claim they should be spared. Yes he had to lie to Nazi and use their terms. But his goals were to save lives and he did it. His actions won him honors at by numerous organizations. Including the Simon Wiesenthal Center. This hardly sounds like a Nazi to me! For reference please see:

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdol_Hossein_Sardari...

Parnam, Down for the count: Aryan History Vindicated

Parnam's scholarly explanation for devoting his life to attempting to De-Iranicize the Aryan tribal, cultural, and linguistic heritage of my beloved people and nation of Iran.  

--------------------------------------------------

" Parham on Sat Aug 20, 2011 01:37 PM PDT Why Aryans don't exist but Arabs and Turks do? Because that's the way it is! "

--------------------------------------------------

Translation: Parnam wants you to be a Turk or Arab -  but will call you a "racist" if you value ancient Iranian cultural history, customs, and languages.  It's the new face of ethnic cleansing, panturkism, panarabism and De-Iranicizing ... seriously, shame on you dude. 

P.S. every one has told Parnam that Aryans are not nor ever were a "race" but Parnam just likes that word because he thinks it hides his agenda.   

--------------------------------------------------

 Go ahead Parnam: If you want to explain why the millions of descendants of the ethno-linguistic tribes called Aryans don't exist in the lands of Iran-Shahr even though they ruled that territory for thousands of years longer than the Arab or Turco-Mongol invaders, go ahead.  Start your sentence like this:  "Aryans don't exist, but Arabs and Turks do because ...."

 **************************

@ Divaneh:  

Yes I did provide you a reference to scholars that pointed out that Darius spoke of his Aryan heritage - this is the accepted view among linguists, archeologists, and anthropologists.  

Scholars of Ancient Iranian Studies, (¶ 2. (8-15.) "I am Darius the Great King, King of Kings, King of countries containing all kinds of men, King in this great earth far and wide, son of Hystaspes, an Achaemenian, a Persian, son of a Persian, an Aryan, having Aryan lineage.")

//www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Languages/aryan/inscription_of_dariush_grt_rstm.htm 

See also Indo-Aryan Languages (several billion speakers): //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_languages 

Dear Parham

Please calm down. Iranian have nothing to do with Hitler. No matter how many times you say this it is simply not true. Darius lived 2500 years before Hitler. The word Aryan was used in Sanskrit. 

What does Iran have to do with Hitler? How many Iranians fought in Nazi ranks? How many concentration camps were in Iran or run by Iranians. The Nazi hunters have made it their job to find hidden Nazi guards. How many were Iranians? 

By the way "capitalizing" your words do not make them true. It just sounds like you are angry. Well anger is not a healthy state of mind; it is bad for you. The language is there and it is called Sanskrit. Many Indians speak it right now. No they are not "blond haired; and blue eyed". They are brown and look Indian. But they do speak Sanskrit or at least very close to it. You may not like it but it is true. See:

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit_revival

So no matter how hard you try to deny it they exist. And they are not what Hitler had in mind. Very much the opposite they are Indian and Iranian looking. 

If Aryan sounds like Nazi that is your misunderstanding. Do you also think of Hitler when you run into anyone named Adolf? 

Getting enough of this

Why Aryans don't exist but Arabs and Turks do?

Because that's the way it is! You know, I didn't make them disappear! If the race is not alive, if the language is not alive, then it doesn't exist!
We may have inherited a lot of their cultural things, but then we have inherited from A LOT of cultures! Why don't you cite those?

More, for VPK who says Iranians don't have anything to do with Nazis -- yes they do. This whole Aryan bullshit was brought up by people who associated with Hitler and wanted him to win the war. As simple as that!

Now you say THIS thing you're discussing here right now doesn't have anything to do with THAT Aryanism, I'm willing to believe it -- but then what does it have to do with?? A race that isn't there anymore. A language that isn't there anymore. AND people (ref Simorgh) who want to "purify" our current culture from anything that's not "Aryan". Well that certainly sounds a lot like Nazism to me, you know? If it walks like a duck, acts like a duck and quacks like a duck too, well it IS a duck!