Misc

Dangers of Linear Extrapolation

...but maybe it's too late for that.  Thomas Friedman did say that within a generation, Muslims from Northern Africa will be the majority in France.  Very interesting phenomenon!

One thing I know is that nothing is linear. People take a couple of sample points of a small portion of a complex graph and extrapolate well beyond its validity.

I remember projections on: How Japan was going to buy the world; the domino theory; now population in Europe. These are very naive projections. There are many elements at work not taken into account. No wonder we get so much bad analysis.

dorosteh, hamsade

Barikalah!  I am with you others saying if you don't like the way we do things here, then get the heck out and go back to where it's the norm.  It gets a bit old, this "I am going to impose my culture on yours and you are going to change because if you don't change it means you are horrible and racist!"   No. It means we have a specific cultural (and/or religious) identity and we want to keep it that way...

...but maybe it's too late for that.  Thomas Friedman did say that within a generation, Muslims from Northern Africa will be the majority in France.  Very interesting phenomenon! 

forgot

One other thing--I do think that in this climate of suicide bombers, it is imperative to acknowledge that a burqa/burka begs the question of safety for others.  And yeah, I know: you can strap explosives on no matter what you're wearing, but come on...talk about anonymity!  I think it's a safety issue--not for the woman who is wearing the burqa (or man--who would know???)--but for others around that person.  

Just sayin'. 

Speaking as a Woman...

I have read the comments from the beginning.  I know that some are having fun with the whole thing (and trust me, I got a laugh out of those wisecracks, too), but this really is a significant issue.

Here's what I'm thinking: As people evolve, equality of all people becomes what we move toward not away from.   Of course, here I am talking about evolution of consciousness.  Someone posted something about bitchy feminists.  Yeah, yeah, we get it: We women are supposed to be intelligent but not demanding.  We are supposed to argue for our rights, but be really sweet about it so that you still want to have sex with us rather than kill us.  And I KNOW--you are right, I AM going overboard, but it's to make a point.  JJ is absolutely right, and Q is wrong--unless, that is, all Q wants to do is make the point that "to each his own."  JJ is talking about the difference(s) between men's (vs. women's) freedom to EXIST and Q is talking about an authority's right to adhere to certain religious ideas and then impose those ideas on the weaker members of the group.  

IMPOSE.  Yes, I said IMPOSE, because it is brainwashing that the women go along with it, like somehow, "Oh, yeah, I want to cover myself up because I enjoy my "freedom" this way."   Yeah, ok, if you look like shit and you have to go out in public, great, I'll agree that THEN the burka comes in handy.  But other than that, for God's sake, how dangerous are we women that our sexuality threatens society?  

This whole "But the women are the ones wanting it" is the same brainwashing of evangelical Christianity--been there, done that.  As long as it is GOD telling me that I am supposed to be the submissive one and that my husband is the one who is the head of the family as Christ is the head of the church...well, then who am I to think I should see myself as equal?  For heaven's sake, in many churches today women are not supposed to be preachers because there are admonitions about women teaching men.  Who came up with that? GOD? Oh, gee, I don't know, maybe...let's see...MEN?

When you have a good thing going--power, whether socio-economic or "just" in the home--why on earth would you want to compromise that?  When you men who are advocates of KEEPING WOMEN IN THEIR PLACE are willing to put yourselves in that place--YOU wear the veil, YOU submit yourselves to women, YOU wear a long coat and scarf even when it's hot out, YOU wear a chador or hejab everywhere out in public...and when you know what it is like to be told that to do otherwise incurs the wrath of God Himself, when you know what it feels like to be told that you are a bitch because you would like to have the same freedom of existence as the man next to you--then come and pontificate about why the hejab (or any other patriarchal idea of equality) is a wonderful thing.

And no, this does not mean that I am against anyone's religion OR that I am for a bayonet in your face if you do not take off the veil.

Again, it's a matter of evolution of consciousness.  Most men aren't really interested in that, especially if it involves putting women in a very equal position to them as far as having a voice--an equal voice--goes.  The ones who are (like JJ and some others) are seen as WIMPS.

Wimps? Asslan!  Those men are far from it.  Very, very far from it. 

Gee, I can't wait to be ripped apart for this post.

Signed,

A woman trying to figure out how to have equal rights without being called dangerous or bitch 

Its simple

If the muslims in France don't like the ban, they should get the flock out and return to their native lands. If they were born there, they can stop the cycle of opression and free themselves. This would be a great excuse to present to their mullah or whoever is "guiding" them.

Really, what are they doing in infidel territory?

____________

IRAN FIRST

____________

that's right aaminian

if one cannot distinguish whether a person is wearing a hejab because it is her religious expression or a sign of oppression, then at the expense the former, it makes sense to ban this type of religious expression.  i encourage you to express yourself by wearing a ski mask next time you go to your bank to see what i mean.  the police is not interested whether you like wearing masks as a hobby.  they will treat you like a potential bank robber.

Burqa Women and Gitmo Prison

I know im gonna get hit for saying this but im going to be "Por'rooh" and say it anyways .-LoL- ...- I think any woman that has the fanaticism to wear a burqa also has the fanaticism to blow themselves up. Think about it ! Look at the women we are dealing with. These women cry about rights and freedom of expression Now because they are in a corner in France and risk losing their "God Given Right " to the Burqa. But if everything was reversed and frenchwoman "Mignonette" wanted to wear a skirt in a Islamist Jihadist Country like Saudi Arabia or heck even the mullah republic of iran---do u think these burqa women would tolerate thaaat ??? Do you think Burqa woman would say we should respect her individual rights ??? Burqa woman would be the first to get her axe to cut off Mignonette's Legs !!!!!  Come on people !  You are arguing and supporting women who are animals !!! I say throw all these burqa women in Guantanimo Bay and throw the key away. ---there i said it.

Hamsade Ghadimi

I am not sure you really got the point of my statements.  I did not say anything/made any assumptions about the way arab/muslim women are treated by their immediate family members.  As a matter of fact, I believe that mistreating family members by enforcing certain dress codes is an entirely separate issue and it needs to be dealt with in accordance with the civil laws of any democratic country.

Going by your argument that the female arab population is forced to put on the veil it almost seems obvious that this law further complicates things for these women; basically, now, they are damned if they put on the veil and damned if they don't!

What I did say was individuals' rights to choose ways to express themselves, as you quoted me previously.  From what I understand, this new law is not doing that.  It is really taking the rights of those women that truly want to put on the veil away from them.

aaminian

what do you mean by "individuals' rights to choose?"  choose what?  should parents be able to choose to marry off their 9-year old to a 50-year old?  freedom does not mean "anything goes."  a few years back in nebraska, the parents of two teen iraqi girls "chose" to pull them out of their high school and (according to their tradition and against the teenagers' wishes) married them to couple of middle-aged relatives.  the state of nebraska took action against the parents and the middle-aged grooms.  do you think that was wrong?  do you think that we should respect these people's tradition? in kazakhstan kidnapping a woman to be a bride is a tradition.  should other countries let their immigrant kazakhs "choose" to kidnap each other in their adopted country?  can the taliban living in the u.s. be able to "choose" to deprive his daughter of an education?

i believe the intent of this partial ban was to protect the rights of women and girls.  this action may cause difficulties for some religious muslim women and girls who may feel exposed without their hejab.  at the expense of these women, other girls and women who want to be seen and heard can break away from their chains.  this phenomenon is ironic much the same way that the new anti-terror securities has taken many freedoms from the people.  for us to preserve our way of life and protect our freedom, it seems, we have to give up some freedoms.

the key phrase that you used was "individual's right to choose." i'm not sure some of these women have that right (or feel that they do). in a nutshell, i believe that the great majority of people in democratic countries support the state (government) to take actions on behalf of those that are deemed vulnerable.

Re: Bastion of EU Freedom? Not!

Oh please,

The Muslims in Europe force their women to wear hijab the same way they do in Iran. It is laughable to hear Islamists in Europe complain about freedom of choice. Hey how about freedom to leave Islam? How about freedom to not wear hijab in Muslim nations?

If Islamists don't like it in Europe they are welcome to leave and go back. I don't think they were sent invitations. Talk about being ungrateful and feeling entitled. Why should the Europeans bend over backwards to accommodate Islamists? When in return they get their politicians and film makers murdered? 

Bastion of EU Freedom? Not!

I don't want to argue for/against religion because that just convolutes issues and besides I am not religious.  All I want to say here is what-the-heck-ever happened to individuals' rights to choose?  Or maybe the French constitution says you are free to choose as long as you pick from a pre-determined list of (European) ideologies!  So, you are free to get butt-naked (pardon the French here!) at a beach but you can't cover your head simply because that doesn't rhyme with our fashion culture.

The foundations of all true democratic societies are based on basic human rights.  Those include (but are not limited to) freedom of expression (YES, surprisingly to some, the right to wear any garment you want is one of them) and press.  Basically, let gays be gays, lesbians be lesbians, straights be straights, and religious people be who they are so long as they don't breach a society's laws.

Baby Popping Machine

They cover the face because it is of no importance.

The Main Problem is!

Who gives the Right to all these Muslims push their religion and values on Non-Muslims???

For more than 2000 years, Europe has been a symbol of Greek, Roman and other Non-Muslim cultures. These cultures have contributed so many beautiful values filled with culture, art , Freedom , Democracy and .... Until these Arab/Muslims came in and ruined it all...

Now, living in Paris, London, Brussels and in so many other parts of Europe reminds you of Cairo, West-Beirut, Rabat, Algire and....They are fine cities, if I want to go there,but don't want to see women in hejab blocking a nude statue in Paris for example...

Plus, why is it that when a Non Muslim European goes to one of these backward middle-Eastern Muslim Countries like Saudi Arabia, she has to cover herself , but the same law doesn't apply when a muslim woman comes to Free/Secular European country??? Hypocricy and Bull Shit much???? You bet ...

The problem is that these people (muslims) come to Europe, collect free money, use and abuse all the public resources, disrespect the culture, religion , language and value systems of these countries, kill/sacrifice their sheeps in the apartment Bath tabs, deprive their women their God given rights and as if all these horrible things are not enough, they manage to BITCH and COMPLAIN about their RIGHTS!!!!

It is True that Europe and The Big Colonists committed crimes against humanity all over the world (Africa, Middle East, Asia and Americas...) and Now the new Europeans have to pay for their Fathers and Grand Father's crimes... BUT I would still love to be in EUROPE and Be exposed to the European culture , values and languages than Arabic and Muslims...

There are good and honorable Arab/Muslims all over the world , but most of them shit all over the place they stay and take life back to 1400 years ago in the Sahara... Every one can see the proof in Iran, Europe and so many other countries where Arab and/or Muslims came in and took over...

Give them an inch and they will take your whole life with it...

Free yourself from the Muslim/Arab backward Religion and mentality, if you truly want to live free...

Here is looking at you kid

French patriots need to step up and take their country back from these people.

Such a beautiful country and a wonderful culture is being ruined by a bunch of god knows what. Just spend a couple of months in France and you will not have any sympathy for the Burqa crowd. They are no better than the Basijis in Iran.

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yt1vQ81jNWw

Screw the French!

Let's not forget that it was the massively culpable and corrupt French government that allowed IRI assassins to execute many Iranian exiles over the last 30 years, including the great Shapour Bakhtiar, Farokhzad, and others like Gholam Ali Oveissi and Shahriar Pahlavi. The slimy French, trying to appease the bloodlust of the new rulers in Iran, turned a blind eye and allowed these Mafioso type hits to take place right under their filthy noses.

Yes, to hell with Europe, the very same continent that has supported the IRI for 30 years, through thick and thin, as Europe is the only reason that the IRI is still in power! It's not China or Russia, but morally depraved European mercantalism that has kept the IRI in power for 30 years, and that is a fact!

MORE IGNORANT MUSLIMS GO TO FRANCE AND ENGLAND, PLEASE!!!!

rpRoshan

Don't you just love the irony? In 50 years or so, Muslims will destroy the European continent as we've known her thus far, specially in the UK and France, and I just LOVE this fact, because it was the slimy French who gave mullah Khomeini his Paris sanctuary (bolangoo) in 1979 and flew him back to Tehran, and of course, it has always been the greedy British who have literally owned and nurtured the mullahs for
special moments (1925, 1953, 1979).

I do love the irony. The British and the French but specially British have fanned flames of Islamic radicalism in Iran. Their goal: to keep us backwards. Now they have to deal with it. France is a small player. The true racism and malevolence is from Britain. To h**l with them I hope the chickens do come home to roost and UK gets run over by Islamists. In fact I think post IRR we should send all the radical islamists to UK. Plane tickets paid for by the Secular Republic of Iran :-) I even throw in a free lunch!

Thanks, gidoun!

Yes, I am aware of that verse in the An-Nur Surah, hence the challenge. :) Even this Surah does not specifially mention the hair or face of muslim women as items to be covered. The only specific body part mentioned is the 'bossom'. The Surah however says that they (muslim women) should not display their "beauty", whatever that maybe. Ofcourse this vagueness has not stopped any of the male imams and ulama through out history from oppersing women.

I am in no way trying to make the case that Islam advocates equality between the sexes, but I think even for the believers this should give some food for thought.

rpRoshan: Agreed. Q can't

rpRoshan: Agreed. Q can't even come close to presenting a cogent argument let alone win an argument. All of q's arguments are paralogism and inspired by dogmatic   religious rhetorics.

Princess Challenge

The arabic word hijab simply means "to cover" and in this context the Quran does mention it. See Quran 24:31. However  the Quran does NOT go into specifications in how "modest clothing" should be done. It is ambiguous on the matter and it allows the believer to choose what this means for he or she.   

little Disclaimer:: i do not support the burqa 

just as one should survey

just as one should survey the minorities to measure the prevalence of racism, one should get the sentiment of women from moslem countries on the issue of hejab.  if you ask a molla, he would say all "good" muslim women want to wear a hejab.  and we've seen how the mollahs for the sake of these "good" muslim women have required all women to wear hejab in iran.

Could the main issue behind this move in France

be one of identity? What I mean is, is the human face not the most recognizable part of the human anatomy, and also the most important in the display of emotions, so crucial in human communication?

After all, as I understand it, the French are not proposing to ban the Hejab per se, but the face covering Burka and Neghab (face mask), are they not?

A very pertinent article on this.

//www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article7003710.ece

Also, every time I hear someone says: "well the majority of the women who wear hejab do so because they choose to", I wonder (even if supposing it IS a majority) how many of them actually "choose to", as opposed having it drummed into their heads from childhood and brainwashed into believing that this is what they must do and, on top of that, the pressure that is brought to bear on them in the communities they live in to conform to the "required" wearing of hejab, while being told (disingenuously): "well it's your own choice, BUT if you don't.....".

I suggest; don't ask don't tell turn a blind eye on this law

Everything is sacred.

Strictly speaking

this face vail is a security issue more than anything else.

It should be banned.

Wearing Burka is a disgrace to women

     It should be banned because it is a tradition or a belief system that targets one gender . It should be banned becuse it is serves no purpose but women's subordination and denigration .

      Equality of men and women is not a cultural issue , it is universal and is a human need .Some cultures like the Arabs have forced it into their womens' psyche .

        In such male dominated societies , men try to dehumanize women . They force them to wear black shapeless clothes , taking their will and identity from them .

     it is time to get rid of Hejab for women .

Dear Mr Faramarz F

A man of your caliber, understanding and knowledge should notice it is 'religiously' and NOT 'religously'  !!!!!!!!!!!!!

haha

الحمد اللله

احسن یا سارکوزی.

Interesting discussion

However, this law does not ban hijab for women, it is against the burkha in particular. In addition, one of the more interesting aspects of this case is that for the first time a Muslim Imam has broken ranks with the rest and has backed this law.

I am a non-believer, but NOWHERE in the qur'an hijab is mentioned. I challenge anybody to quote directly from the Qur'an where it says women have to cover their hair and faces.

I agree with VPK on the real reason why this law is passed and I agree with JJ that in chauvinistic islamic societies/communities, it is very difficult to judge if the women who cover themselves, do so by their own conviction and of their own volition.  

On the whole I side with France on this particular law, but I would not back a total ban against hijab. 

And for the record...

JJ has literally CRUSHED Q on this thread. Here is a sampling of Q's utter jibberish:

Most girls who wear hejab don't think of it as "imposed".

Oh, really? And you know this how, sir? Do you base your opinion on the fact that 'your' family didn't object to wearing the hejab upon the IRI's arrival?  Have you polled enough Muslim girls in the Middle-East and/or Western countries to see if "most" do not think the hejab is "imposed?"

Wearing pants is a lot more imposed by secular parents than hejab is imposed by Muslim parents.

Do you seriously not see how ridiculous your argument is here --actually, your argument here is the real redherring! Secular boys and girls may be required to wear pants -- but they both have to wear them, so there is an innate and positive sense of equality and fairness with pants. On the other hand, hejab is only reserved for Muslim girls,and that was JJ's point. Western men and women BOTH wear pants, but you don't see Muslim men wearing the burka, do you?

In France they are not forced to either, but they want to.

Oh, really? Again, HOW THE HECK DO YOU KNOW that Muslim women in France REALLY "want" to wear the hejab? Have you done professional polling on this issue in France? Have you, Q? Unless you have, please don't go on your silly little soap box lampooning about what Muslim girls in western countries REALLY want.

Actually, I bet a great many Muslim girls wear the hejab in Western countries, and in Muslim countries for that matter, not because they "want" to, but because if they don't, their fathers, brothers or male cousins will look down upon them or possibly call them sluts, or worse, cut their heads off or pour acid over their faces.

I bet a great many Muslim girls wear the oppressive hejab in 100 degree temperatures in the Middle-East not because they want to, but because they're forced to, primarily because they live in male-dominated societies.

...

نه به جور و ظلم گذاشتن و نه به مویه و زور برداشتن...

در عجبم که در چه دنیایی داریم زندگی‌ می‌کنیم !

GOOD FOR FRANCE!

Don't you just love the irony? In 50 years or so, Muslims will destroy the European continent as we've known her thus far, specially in the UK and France, and I just LOVE this fact, because it was the slimy French who gave mullah Khomeini his Paris sanctuary (bolangoo) in 1979 and flew him back to Tehran, and of course, it has always been the greedy British who have literally owned and nurtured the mullahs for special moments (1925, 1953, 1979).

Well, the chickens have come home to roost, folks, in a big way! I just LOVE to hear about all the "cultural" problems that the French and the British are having these days because of their sizeable "Muslim" population. 

How sweet it really is! MORE IGNORANT MUSLIMS GO TO EUROPE, that's what I wan to see!!!