Mohammad Khatami

Opposes secular democracy


more from Tapesh

Kazem Mer30

by Golinedairani on

"چون ايران نباشد تن من مباد" Merci Kazem Ahsan vaghan eintory ast ke shoma migin, man ein videoro gozashtam badan didam shoma am hamin videoro paksh kardin


Boroujerdiro Azad Konin!!!!!

by Golinedairani on

"چون ايران نباشد تن من مباد"   Man nemidunam agar garrar bud ma tarafdare.. akhund  bashim chera ma Boroujerdi ro be sine nemizanim? Be man yehk Ahkhund neshun bedin joz Monatazeri va nesbatan shoja mesle Karubi... Ki??? Mesle Boroujerdi bood?  Ki unghadar tarafdar dasht?   // Its a long video but worth watching, you see the basij and how a small pocket of people held back  the basij for days.. From 8 minutes on Boroujerdi comes out and speaks out, and if anyone thinks he is doing this out of some ones pocket like many think where is the money where is his prize bad bakht tuye zendan dare az beyn mire. "Man az niruye entezami sohal mikonam shoma baraye khetmate be mellat ahmadeyn  ya baraye koshtane bachehaye ein mellat" Tars nadasht va dusha dushe javunash vaystahd  Man khodam bi iman shodam vali poshte hamchin adame ba imano pahk vaymistam.


Iran with the Monarchy Ideal was and will always be secular.

by AlexInFlorida on

The Shah served Iran with distinction.  Most people in Iran enjoyed life, their families and children more with the monarchy during the 70's than under IRI over last 31 years. 

This is not just because Iran was in the top 9 wealthiest countries in the world, with the largest middle class in the middle east and lowest levels of unemployment and poverty or because it was getting wealthier by the day, but because the people enjoyed every single type of freedom they could handle and were being educated to handle more freedoms.  You could feel progress, change and growth.

Yet Iranians are not given the free choice to go back to Monarchy.  It is a genuine threat to the fundamentalist backward way of life, due to its results and popularity upon deep reflection.  Infact being a Monarchist as many Iranians are today and publicly admitting it is reason to be executed, so it is a repressed cause within Iran.

Monarchy with time is the only institution in Iran that can bring progress and freedom to the lives of our people.  For Iranians it's beauty and gooodness is magnified because it is also the only system of government that is based on Iranian Traditions and the Iranian Spirit.

Before 1979 the majority of the people thought that everything that is good, beautiful and true about Iran was due to the spiritual tradition of Islamic Ideals.  Because of the self serving speeches by Irans future thieves, they were under the perception that it was monarchy that was the source of corruption, torture and cruelty in Iran.  If all they did was change monarchy for islam every thing would be great they thought.

Still many people that were fooled back in 1979, by listening to self serving political groups like mullahs still believes the lies about shahs corruption, dictatorial nature and savak.  But the truth can not be kept a secret forever and people are slowly realizing their mistakes.

In only 31 years Iranians have made a valuable discovery.  Everything that is corrupt, unjust and cruel in Iran is rooted within the fundamentalist ideology.  And furthermore Iranians are discovering slowly and upon deep reflection that most of the things that were good, beautiful and true in Iran were the result of Iranian traditions, the iranian spirit and the monarchy.


vosough –While welcome to express their opinions, I don't want

by MM on


While welcome to express their opinions, I don't want academicians like Soroush to come near the drafting of the Iranian constitution.  His ideas are untested and too academic, and he certainly does not have a good record the last time he tried.  Even if you look at his breakdown of secularism, it is too academic and does not represent the real truth.  The only thing close to his philosophical secularism is communism and even in communism, you have religions sprouting all over even in China, the last stronghold of hardcore communism

In the US, yes, they started with the ten commandments, but then they removed everything that had to do with displaying religious ideologies, because the politicians know that they have to give equal footing to ALL religions if they endorsed one.  OK, there is occasional coinn with in god we trust, but not many.  Even the Christmas holidays in our school district is now called winter holidays

There are atheist politicians in the US as well.  His name is Pete Stark Jr. from California.  Numerous religions are represented by politicians.  You will see that some representatives do not even declare a religion.  If you look at the religions of Members of the 111th United States Congress, here is how the religions break down: Protestant (54.7%), Catholic (30.1%),  Jewish (8.4%), Mormon (2.6%), Orthodox (1.3%), Unknown (0.9%), Other Christian (0.6%), Other religions (0.6%), Muslim (0.4%) and Buddhist (0.4%).  In the 111th United States Congress, there are 76 women serving the U.S. House and 17 in the U.S. Senate, which is the highest number of women to hold Congressional office.  There have been six openly lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender members in the history of Congress with others caught in the act, though married

The number of Jews in America is estimated to be 1.7%, and yet 8.4% of the congress of the US is Jewish, so you see that people care about who they vote for rather than gather around their religious kinds.  People in the US vote for who they have relations and trust.   I would trust Soroush's religious democracy (see below) as far as I can throw it

دموکراسی دینی هم به همین اندازه امکان دارد؛ عده‌ای به نام دین و ابزار دین و بنا به تکلیف دینی بکوشند تا در کشور خودشان یک نظم دموکراتیک برپا کنند. یک نظم دموکراتیک که به همه‌‌ شهروندان حق مساوی دهد، حق مشارکت سیاسی و تمامی حقوق لازم در نظام دموکراسی به افراد داده شود و مهمتر از همه یک قوه قضاییه مستقل به وجود آورد که رکن اساسی هر نظام دموکراتیک است و البته هیچ منافاتی با اسلام ندارد و در عین حال ستون دموکراسی است.

دموکراسی دینی هیچ تفاوتی با دموکراسی ندارد و تنها چون مسئولیتش بر عهده دینداران است میتواند نامش دموکراسی دینی باشد. در یک دموکراسی دینی حداکثر سعی میشود قوانینی که با قوانین قطعی دینی منافات دارند به تصویب نرسند؛ این قوانین قطعی و ضروری هم در اسلام بسیار محدود هستند. فتاوی زیادی ممکن است وجود داشته باشد اما میتوان به مهمترین آنها اکتفا کرد و حتی در صورت لزوم اجتهاد تازه کرد. همین ضامن اسلامی شدن قوانین است و بقیه دین به پایبندی قلبی خود مومنان باز میگردد که چقدر در عمل به شریعت اهتمام دارند.



by vosough on

After living in U.S. for 31 years now and seeing how even in this country the 'symbol' of democracy and separation of church and state we still haven't had a prominent atheist or even agnostic person elected to congress forget about the office of presidency -- not too mention the implicit limitation 'so far' in having a non-Christian elected to any major posts such as a governor, senator, and of course president.

So yes Soroush talk may be philosophical mumbo jumbo or typical academic talk however if one looks at this matter logically and rationally one can see Iran is years away from having the typical democracy where in which a secular atheist or agnoistic person is able to advocate his or her position in social policies.



Vosoogh, thanks for the link and for exposing Soroush

by jamshid on

Congradualtion Soroush, after 30 years, you have learn a new letter of alphabet, but I am afaid it is not enough for the future of Iran. Here is what Soroush thinks:

حال اگر ما میتوانیم از استبداد دینی سخن بگوییم، پس می توانیم از دموکراسی دینی هم سخن بگوییم. .

دموکراسی دینی هم به همین اندازه امکان دارد؛ عده‌ای به نام دین و ابزار دین و بنا به تکلیف دینی بکوشند تا در کشور خودشان یک نظم دموکراتیک برپا کنند.

دموکراسی دینی هیچ تفاوتی با دموکراسی ندارد و تنها چون مسئولیتش بر عهده دینداران است میتواند نامش دموکراسی دینی باشد.

David ET

then read the rest of it!

by David ET on

   after all that philosophical talk when it comes to practice, he proposes a non-secular regime!!!

Typical Soroush!



افتراق و اختلاف نظر میان سکولار ها


عبدالکریم سروش در مصاحبه با روز:  

به طور کلی دو گونه سکولاریزم داریم: سکولاریزم سیاسی و سکولاریزم فلسفی. سکولاریزم سیاسی یعنی انسان، نهاد دین را از نهاد دولت جدا کند و حکومت نسبت به تمام فرقه‌ها و مذاهب نگاهی یکسان داشته باشد و تکثر آنها را به رسمیت بشناسد و نسبت به همه آنها بی‌طرف باشد. به این معنا بسیاری از مذهبی ها هم سکولار سیاسی هستند و چنین بیطرفی سیاسی را در حضور عقاید مختلف و متکثر به رسمیت می شناسند و بر آن صحه میگذارند.

اما سکولاریزم دیگری داریم با نام سکولاریزم فلسفی که معادل با بی دینی و بی اعتقادی به دیانت است و نوعی ماتریالیزم(ماده‌گرایی) است. این نوع سکولاریزم با اندیشه دینی غیر قابل جمع است. یکی قائل به اثبات دین است و دیگری قائل به نفی دین و جمع بین نفی و اثبات غیرممکن است. اگر سکولاریزم سیاسی را در نظر بگیریم شاید همه و یا اکثریت اعضایی که آن بیانیه را امضا کردند سکولار سیاسی هستند؛ مخصوصا پس از این تجربه تلخ و عمیق جمهوری اسلامی که به ما آموخته است در آمیختن قدرت و دین و از موضع خدا در جامعه حکومت کردن چه آفت‌هایی به دنبال دارد. در واقع برای اینکه دین جان سالم به در برد و ایمان مومنان، آزادانه و نه به تحمیل صورت گیرد، به نظر من سکولاریزم سیاسی یک امر بسیار پسندیده است اما سکولاریزم فلسفی نه، چون با دیانت قابل جمع نیست. در یک نظام مبتنی بر سکولاریزم سیاسی افرادی که به دیانت هم معتقد نیستند می‌توانند از حقوق شهروندی برخوردار باشند و آزادانه زندگی کنند و از همه مزایا و مواهبی که دیگران به حکم شهروندی برخوردار هستند، بهره‌مند شوند.     // 

Veiled Prophet of Khorasan


by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

Judging by what I have seen on this site by our liberal iranian friends, I don't think they truly respect freedom of speech and thoughts much more than those jerks. If you truly believe in freedom and democracy for Iran, you don't constantly attack their religious beiliefs as that would make you much better and smarter.

Freedom of speech does not mean agreeing with you. It means allowing you to have speech. You and others are obviously allowed to say your part. You are the one who is questioning peoples freedom of speech. 

That is our freedom of speech. And if someone wants to attack a religious belief that is their freedom of speech. Just watch some of the political debates in the US. It is all about disagreement and yes even verbal attacks.

The way to defend religion is by responding to attack logically. Not by getting mad and demanding they be quiet. If you don't like an argument; then debate opposite point.



good one VPK - just saw your list.

by MM on



What have you people been smoking?

by choghok on

Maybe it was a nice touch by Ahmaghinejad followers to spread this old clip so to split the unity between Iranian people.

It is nothing new that Khatami beleives in the Iranian constitution, he would have not been allowed to participate in the election otherwise, what have been all smoking?

The issue is that while Ahmaghinejad, Ali ye dast and their stooges try to say everything is perfect, we did nothing wrong and people are rioters, he says the opposite.

Instead of being manipulated and start splitting lets stay together, but acknowledge the differences.

And as I said earlier I totally agree with Khatami here. Average man in Iran is not in the mindset of having a democracy in form of western countries.

gitdoun ver.2.0

very disappointing and im so Dumb

by gitdoun ver.2.0 on

i guess im very naive and still have alot to learn. i really thought if there was 1 mullah who was against wilayat faqhi (principle of I.R.I) and would support Democracy it would have been Khatami . But they're all against democracy and all want some form or shade of wilayat akhundie. I really thought deep down that the clerics of today were different than the clerics that opposed the 1911 Constitution Revolution or Mossadegh back in 1951. I truely thought in 2010 there were some clerics , like Khatami, that were progressive and supported Democracy. But no , regardless of era, all mullahs are the same. 


Fear of unknown! Separation of state and religion!

by obama on

Look at the crowd sitting there! All the shills from the regime. He cannot say anything otherwise. Remember in Ashura how they attacked him? He has to say that. At the same time, he is correct when he says we don't know what would happen.

Judging by what I have seen on this site by our liberal iranian friends, I don't think they truly respect freedom of speech and thoughts much more than those jerks. If you truly believe in freedom and democracy for Iran, you don't constantly attack their religious beiliefs as that would make you much better and smarter.

Your action is what counts! You need not stereotype or demonize the religious people as they shouldn't demonize you! We have a long way to go in this struggle before we grasp the real meaning of democracy!

Meanwhile you are stuck in the mud with the mollahs! May God save us from these evils inside and outside! We have no friends! Arab governments, Israel, US, UK, Russia ..... we are on our own. Our unity is the most important weapon to achieve democracy.

We have to be weary of foreign power's intention so we don't be used by them without us knowing it. Long live Iran! Down w/ Corrupt IRI!


"... دموکراسی دینی، پیتزا قورمه سبزی"


بارها و بارها گفته‌اند، سگ زرد برادر شغال است...

ایرانیان باید برای آخرین بار تصمیم اول و آخر‌شان را بگیرند و تکلیف
خود را با خود و دنیا را روشن کنند! آقایان، خانمها، هممیهانان گرامی‌،
شما یا ایرانی‌ هستید و یا مسلمان! یا این ، یا آن! من خودم متاسفانه یک
مسلمان بودم! البته  نه با انتخاب خود بلکه به دلیل جبر زمان و مکان (در
ایران ویران)! در ضمن، کلمات عربی‌ استفاده میکنم که حزب‌اللهی‌ها همیشه
در صحنه اینجا حسابی‌ حال کنند... بگذریم، اصل فلسفه ایران و اسلام از
پایه و بنیاد با یکدیگر فرق فاحشی دارند! بیش از ۱۴۰۰ سال است که این
مساله دردناک به وضوح آشکار است! این تضاد کامل در تمامی زوایا ی انسانی‌،
فکری، عملی‌، فرهنگی‌، علمی‌، سیاسی، عرفانی و و و ... مثل روز روشن است!
آخه تا کی‌ این مساله را میشود انکار و تکذیب کرد؟ آقا، این دو تا با هم
کار نمیکنند حالا هی‌ مردم به دفاع ایران را بکشید...   آقا با اسلامتان
آمدید و بسیار کلمات خوب را وارد فرهنگ و زبان ایرانیان کردید، متشکریم،
دستتان درد نکنه... ولی‌ این دین و مذهب شما (به خصوص این شیعه اثنا اشعری
و جمهوری اسلامیتان) در مقابل فرهنگ بزرگ و خجسته ایران خدا وکیلی مفتش
گرونه... این را یک بچه ایرانی‌ هم از روز بدنیا آمدنش میتواند تشخیص
دهد... جشن نوروز یا ماه محرّم؟ جواب واضح است... دموکراسی دینی، پیتزا
قورمه سبزی...

Veiled Prophet of Khorasan


by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on


I have suggested in the past that Iranian diaspora should bring international charges against the IRI leadership. It is doable and not new. Other dictators such as Pinochet faced similar actions so there is precedent. 

Also their assets should be frozen and used to compensate trier victims.


the longer this movement takes

by didani on

the less chance of an Islamic anything in Iran.



by Benyamin on

In light of what has happened in Iran after the un-ellections of this year I believe we Iranians outside of Iran can do more and take practical and doable steps!

I propose to create a "council of justice for Iranian citizens" This council will be able to hear the cases of those subjected to injustice by the IRI starting with most severe cases. and this council must be consist of minorities and people that are famous for their fairness or lived with just and have no criminal past in or outside Iran.

And we all should donate money to this council to investigate presons and characters in the IRI and show them live with no censorship and broadcast it through Iranian media. I believe we have all the resources and people and wittnesses to make this happen.

Let`s do something for our IRAN.


VPK: Secular Mihan Parastan

by vildemose on

VPK: Secular Mihan Parastan or vatan parastan is great too.


Khar jaan

by Mehrban on

Well said.  It sure is time to move on. 


Really what did you expect?

by Khar on

Thomas Jefferson? Apple doesn't fall far from its tree! We need new breed of thinkers with real secular alternatives. We all have a role to play in finding the new way of thinking away from our norms. Let's do our part!

persian pit bull

true color

by persian pit bull on

we will not be able to move on unless we give up the KHORAFAT that is called religion and hopefully one day the whole notion of GOD

till then 

Veiled Prophet of Khorasan

Secular Muslim or Secular Mihan Parastan

by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on


I agree Secular Muslim is a much better word. But the problem is that it automatically leaves out or turns off non Muslims. I know that Iran is supposedly 98% Muslim. But I tell you none of my family members will call themselves Muslim. There are a lot of Iranians who are angry at Islam and I just think we are better off leaving out the Muslim word.

Why not "Secular Nationalists". Or "Secular Melli" or "Mihan Parastan-eh Secular". We are a very nationalistic people. I rather appeal to nationalism than Islam. Believe me nationalism is a very powerful force. It will unite all of us and does not have the Islam baggage. We need a force for all Iranian people.

Plus there is a danger if we go with Islam we will have our movement hijacked by Islamic types. This is the mistake that the left made. We must avoid it.


In my book, it's not about

by benross on

In my book, it's not about democracy. It's not about secularism. It's about freedom of expression and individual rights. Don't divert the attention. You have NO RIGHT to talk about democracy or secularism without freedom of expression for citizens.

Mr. Khataami you are very articulate and very convincing in your belief. At least you think you are. Therefore you can easily win over any other opposing idea. So... where is freedom of expression?

This 'reformist' is pretending that he supports freedom of expression, yet he draws the line when it comes to the existence of the regime itself.

Bring me freedom of expression, then we talk. Otherwise I don't care what you think. So bring on the freedom of expression and bring on a referendum. A choice between one of two constitutions of Iran. You are sure you can convince the majority who do not want a westernized model, so bring them on. We'll see.

David ET

VPK and Jamshid

by David ET on

VPK: That was a great list. I think you should work on that list, improve it even more and submit it as an article here and for use at iran secular asking for ideas. It is best to keep it simple to understand. We can then translate it to Persian. 

Jamshid: Indeed Boroujredi is a great Example of a secular Muslim Leader , a victim of the regime who has been under-represented by the opposition.  




Jamshid jan: I like Secular

by vildemose on

Jamshid jan: I like Secular moslims much better. You're right Boroujerdi is a unsung hero of Iran and shia moslems.



by jamshid on

"Secular Moslems" sounds better than Secular Islamic. People tend to show less allergy to the word "moslem" than "Islamic" for obvious reasons.

Your idea of reclaiming Islam from these IRI thugs is a good one. We can start by supporting Ayatollah Boroujerdi. I know a lot of people are going to say a mollah is a mollah and it won't make any difference.

I don't agree. We need to be practical. By enlisting people like Boroujerdi, we are enlisting their followers as well. This will bring peace and unity between religious moslem seculars and non-religious seculars, which is a "must" in order for secularism to succeed in Iran.

Boroujerdi is currently in an IRI prison because he is against velaayate faghih and he believes in the separation of religion and government, and he was outspoken about both. Not many people even mention him. Even fewer people can see him as an actual asset for the liberation of Iran.



by Observing_Iran on

Islam is not compatible with democracy.



Independence, Freedom, Iranian Republic

استقلال، آزادی، جمهوری ایرانی


VPK jan: that is a great

by vildemose on

VPK jan: that is a great list. Thank you.

Veiled Prophet of Khorasan


by Veiled Prophet of Khorasan on

VPK: You're right. it's clear for you and I that secular Islamic is an oxymoron, however, I'm not so sure if the concept of secularism is clearly understood by the religious people in Iran who still think Islam and democracy are compatible and therfore, there is no need for a "secular" government to begin with.. You have to make the concept palatable to them first before they lend you their ears...

  • The first thing is to make it clear Secular doe NOT mean atheist.  
  • Next make it clear Secularism will safeguard their religion. What I mean is that if a Shiite Muslim wants  Ayatollah Montazari's version of Islam that would be fine. They don't have get Khamenei's version forced on them.
  • It also means that Sunnis are free to practice Islam as they see fit not as VF.
  • It means that Sufi Islam will be able to flourish.
  • It means Armenians are free do build their Churches.
  • It means when the government screws up we don't blame it on Islam. That is good for Islam not bad.
  • It means no politician may claim to be the word of God. No more murder in the name of God.
  • It means you won't be a  "Moharreb" because you crossed someone.
  • It means you do not have to worship according to dictates of others.

By the way I am not an atheist. I just don't want VF telling me what to beleive. I prefer to keep mine to myself.


VPK: You're right. it's

by vildemose on

VPK: You're right. it's clear for you and I that secular Islamic is an oxymoron, however, I'm not so sure if the concept of secularism is clearly understood by the religious people in Iran who still think Islam and democracy are compatible and therfore, there is no need for a "secular" government to begin with.. You have to make the concept palatable to them first before they lend you their ears...