Pictory

We don't like to say "I

We don't like to say "I don't know" or "I am not in a position to talk about ..."

Add to that, this 'typical' Iranian mind that we don't expect anyone in position of authority not to have an opinion on everything!

As a consumer of music, I have every right to like or dislike any music. From here, to writing a blanket judgment for everybody, there is a wall that we don't see. WE DON'T SEE. It doesn't mean that Shamloo didn't express his opinion at a personal level. It means that we won't take it as such.

Shamloo himself may think it was his personal opinion, but he also is quite aware of its impact as a person in position of authority. Iranians are not in the habit of once accepting an authority, define its field and its limits!

A good part of the significance of Shamloo's comment that Ari underlines is in this area.

The better part of it however, is defined in what Shamloo represents in our contemporary culture: modernity.

I don't think Shamloo got it right -and this is a personal opinion- but it is nonetheless significant because it emphasizes on modern thinking and not being stranded by traditional framework.

Given our capacity for cultivating cult of personality, we were very very lucky that Shamloo was truly a genuine poet and genuine modernist. Otherwise all we would have left with, would have been someone with a personality somewhat exhibitionist. (with all due respect)

Asking the wrong person!

I think he shouldn't have been asked about music in the first place. He was a poet after all. I do respect him as a poet but he was not in a position to judge people like Alizadeh or Abolhassan Saba.

Typical Iranian behaviour (I'm Iranian too). We don't like to say "I don't know" or "I am not in a postion to talk about ...". Instead we give lectures in subjects that we are even vaguely qualified.

I play music but unfortunately not Iranian music. It realy hurts when people talk about things that they don't know enough about.

Stockhausen

I think why a lot of Iranians had an axe to grind with Stockhausen was because of his appearance at one of the more disasterous jashn-e honar-e Shiraz. It wasn't his fault though! He was invited. But, I don't know, I don't know anyone who found Stockhausen a pleasure to listen to. If you listen to any of his music you can see why Shamloo would ridicule him.

Stockhausen

Stockhausen died three years ago. I still like his speech(1973) You can listen to it in his website talking about his views:   

//www.stockhausen.org/

Last time I've heard some other composer's works as an homage to him, some of them pretty decent.

As artists I have great respect for both Shamloo and Stockhausen.

Not inspired enough

He is spot on

Passerby

I admire him as a great poet. I think his views on persian traditional music are spot on. He was once heavily criticized for ridiculing Karlheinz Stockhausen music. Anyone heard of  Stockhausen lately? 

Thanks Sima jan, Please! I am allergic to hendoneh ;O)

Nice conversation ladies and the agent. I heard it first time around when I was in Iran but didn't know he was in your neck of the wood. It was pretty disappointing amongst teenagers like us who were worshiping Persian music. My best friend used to play setar with such a aspiration. The day he delivered the message he was totally flattened. Maybe Shamloo's message came at the right time since he dropped the music and now have become a good architect.

Ekhtiyar darid, Midwesty jan!

Who said you're not as much an idol as the Great Ahmad Khan?

But seriously, Shamloo's biting irreverence was irresistable. Especially in person.

Sima,

You're welcome!

I know, you meant Shamloo, But didn't I do the same thing that he did?

He is no idol. Great poet but not an idol! 

Well, Shamloo was an iconoclast!

When you are as great as Ahmad Khan you can be as opinionated as you want. He was an excellent muckraker!

Anyways, irreverence is always so refreshing. Made my day!

He is probably right

but you can't beat a good chahar mezrab any time, the rest I can do without!

I don't disagree with you...

My point is, that he had the greatest chance to influence Persian music in a positive way but what he chose was only to criticize it.

The Persian notes are built around the poetic rhymes (vazen she-er).

My question is why didn't he make poems to defy that and gather musicians to form Persian music around his poem.

21 nim pardehs or none at all(?)

music appreciation does have a subjective element, no doubt.  because he is Shamloo, a great artist himself educated in rhyme and tone, we are interested in hearing his critique. what would work with the system of a particular piece of music and what sends it into constant grief mode/ geryeh mottlagh, may work for some but not apparently for Shamloo.  he is emphasizing the new attempts at the old techniques, any way, i think.  just like saying either we only celebrate death (culture of azaadaari) or we play numb and laugh all the time! there many variations to the shades of gray in music as well as life itself. self-loathing?! Shamloo?! 

If we didn't have the nim pardeh

what would differentiate our music from the western music maestro? How one call her/himself an Iranian if s/he is so self loathing?

Geryeh Mottlagh! (21 taa nim pardeh)

He knew more about music than average listeners.  Just listen and learn. 

Great post BK. I was proudly present in his classroom that day and so appreciate the memories. 

I know I am going to regret this...

He was a miserable typical Iranian being who happened to be a great poet. He had no expertise in music neither do I, that opens the door for me to criticize him.

What I know is that the Persian music was developed very likely from the lyrics mainly of the lullabies from the Persian mothers. Later the Persian poetry greatly influenced the Persian music:

//iranian.com/main/2010/mar/sima-bina

I agree with him to some extend about the sad tone in Persian music. Aside the topic of sadness needs the discussion of its own, it was the poets that influenced the Iranian music not the other way around.

But look at this, this is the best part:

He, himself was a poet. I wonder che goli this amu zad be sareh Iraniam music that calling now the artists mules, ridiculing the great efforts in reviving and advancing Persian music.

Neynava by Hossein Alizadeh was created during Iran-Iraq war by a Western music educated man that knows the ups and downs of both western and Persian music. We didn't have happy time back then to be happy about.

Shajarian just came out with his own design of innovative instruments.
Way to go and way left to go. Not there yet but won't happen over night and pessimism won't help it either!

He was just a typical ordinary Iranian, neshasteh kenare goad, migeh lengesh kon!

Nevertheless, frankly, if it wasn't for his nagging, I doubt the artists would have left their comfort zone to explore the new frontiers.

"... bad yaroo ar ar mikone..."

Has had me in stitches.

He's spot on!

BRILLIANT analysis. Explains a lot...

Thanks for posting this!