Misc

yes you ARE playing games, Craig

and they are mildly amusing as they only serve to expose your ignorance. You can look up the UN charter yourself but you insist on wasting time to protect your ego.

I wonder what excuse you will find next. This is fron the United Nations Charter signed by Israel.

All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.

Craig

That's right. People don't go to war. Nations go to war. When acountry goes to war, that state of war affects all of that countries citizens whether they like it or not. This is not me making generalizations. It's the way things are.

No craig. You need to quit taking matters out of context. It is the people who actually take up arms and do the fighthing as part of a nation.

"Whetherr they like it or not" has become your tool of choice in trying to shove your ideas down people's head, hasn't it?LOL

Again. People choose to take a different stand and NOT participate in any kind of war. be it Propaganda or the real fight. And THIS IS SOOOOOOOO not the way Things are. If that is the case, Then someone needs to wake up. IS it true to say that The war in afghanistan has affected everyone in US even though they have made it more than clear how they feel about it?

Nor am I trying to. I'm stating that Iranian nationals are not neutral in regards to Israel. If they make a personal choice that they don't want to support their country wagingw ar on israel, they should either remain quiet or they should critcize their own government (not the enemy's lol)

 Ohhh. Ok now, So NOW i know where you actually stand. You really do not give a crap where iranians stand on this issue anyway. You just don't care. IRI wants or talks about war with ISrael So all ya iranians are guilty.

Well. They can not remain quiet when they see atrocity committed by Israel or at least what they perceive to be so. Just like you can not keep quiet and call them all in favor of being on the same side as IRI based on what they say ON IC. And critcizing their Gov, is what we do and very solidly so i may add. You just do not take the time to notice. Oh right. what am i saying, You take it at its face value. Wow. Very deep... you have given this issue all the fairness you could have mustered I suppose by being that deep.  My bad.

. So far so good, right?

Ohhh > hell No. Wrong wrong wrong. Wrong wrong wrong wrong!!!! You are wrong! You are wrong! You are wrong! Here. Prefer to hear it from an american fellow?:)

 //www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrjwaqZfjIY

 My beef is with the Iranians on this website who savage israel and then try to pretend they are just objective observers. No Iranian can attack Israel with either words or actions and claim to be a neutral, because they are citizens of a country that is waging war on Israel.

They are citizens of a country called IRan where they were born, not the iran that was taken over by the mullahs. DO you really see no difference there? You did not seem to like it when they called americans cowboys or ignorant, based on the actions of your Then-president (G. Bush) because admittedly that is when the world started calling americans such names. yet your not extending the same courtesy to iranians?

 guess we'll have to agree to disagree. When people are being killed in acts of aggression between two nations, war exists whether it is formally declared or not.

Between Iran and Israel? really? since when?

And I have no problem with them. My beef is with people like Q and Ostaad, who make no secret of their animosity towards Israel but then try pretend they are just like the Euro-weenies and that their concerns are on "human rights" grounds, and not that they simply wnat their country to win.

Yes you do. You do have problem with iranians in iran whom you are all in it because of their government's intention to destroy and waging a war against israel,because according to you " it is a nation that goes to war not the people" and of course those on this site who seem to be in favor of such a position.

Q & K

Q, I asked for treaty text. Three times. I didn't ask for your interpretation of the UN Charter. I didn't ask for a list of UN Resolutions. You made a claim. Prove it.

KouroshS,

You say: iranian nationals... meaning ALL iranians.

That's right. People don't go to war. Nations go to war. When acountry goes to war, that state of war affects all of that countries citizens whether they like it or not. This is not me making generalizations. It's the way things are.

That means you are
not all making the distinction between those who live there and yet
opposed IRI with all their might and those who Live there and act like
sheeps.

Nor am I trying to. I'm stating that Iranian nationals are not neutral in regards to Israel. If they make a personal choice that they don't want to support their country wagingw ar on israel, they should either remain quiet or they should critcize their own government (not the enemy's lol) for waging a war they don't support. So far so good, right? My beef is with the Iranians on this website who savage israel and then try to pretend they are just objective observers. No Iranian can attack Israel with either words or actions and claim to be a neutral, because they are citizens of a country that is waging war on Israel.

I honestly can't think of a way to state it more clearly. My country (US) has been at war many times during my lifetime, and I honestly don't understand why this concept even needs to be explained. 

Iran IS NOT at war with Israel. How did you come conclusion? Merely
exchanging clownish rethrics and bit of hatred is good enough evidence
for you?

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. When people are being killed in acts of aggression between two nations, war exists whether it is formally declared or not.

That was my point, there are plenty who have acted and been neutral
about it and have stayed out. I am so done with this thing
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.

And I have no problem with them. My beef is with people like Q and Ostaad, who make no secret of their animosity towards Israel but then try pretend they are just like the Euro-weenies and that their concerns are on "human rights" grounds, and not that they simply wnat their country to win.

Thats right, rocket attacks are really NOT attacks

When poor innocent Palestinians fire rockets provided by Iran into Israel, its a sign of love.  Why would the freakin Jews think otherwise?

Whats the worst that can happen. They can die from the explosion.  So what?!

Craig why do you insist on stupid games?

We both know it doesn't matter what kind of evidence I show you. You do not have the integrity to accept it and continue playing games wasting all of our time. Each of those resolution has text.

your words:

If it's so clear and it is so obvious Israel has behaved illegally, I'm sure you will have no trouble providing the treaty text and explaining exactly where, when and how Israel has in violation "at least" 4 times.

These violations are from different parts of the UN Charter and previous UN resolutions (hence they are more than 4).

Speciically article 51 of the UN Charter allows for self defense in the face of a clear and imminent attack.

The problem is that Israel has stretched this to include things that are not clear, imminent or even "attacks".

Craig.

Are you confused?

You say: iranian nationals... meaning ALL iranians. That means you are not all making the distinction between those who live there and yet opposed IRI with all their might and those who Live there and act like sheeps.

Iran IS NOT at war with Israel. How did you come conclusion? Merely exchanging clownish rethrics and bit of hatred is good enough evidence for you?

On one hand you say:

That remains true whether they feel like a neutral too?

On the other hand you add:

And I would humbly submit that any Iranian who actually does feel neutral in the conflict between Iran and Israel would try to stay out of it. Or criticize

That was my point, there are plenty who have acted and been neutral about it and have stayed out. I am so done with this thing aaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.

KoroushH

IRANIANS have no right to criticize Israel on humanitarian grounds!

I'm standing my ground on that one. Iranian nationals are citizens of a nation that is waging war against Israel. It's improper under those circumstances for Iranian nationals to be playing the role of a neutral in order to "criticize" the nation their country is at war with. And that remains true whether they *feel* like a neutral or not. And I would humbly submit that any Iranian who actually does feel neutral in the conflict between Iran and Israel would try to stay out of it. Or criticize their own country (Iran) for waging a war they don't support. There's nothing at all neutral about hammering the enemy with hateful rhetoric.

Q

For somebody as anal about parsing words as you are, should I be surprised I asked you to prove your claim and you buried me with something completely irrelevant?

This is what I asked you to prove:

The UN recognizes clear criteria for pre-emptive action against an imminent threat...

Show me the treaty text. Not the UN resolutions. Show me the clauses of the UN charter and any other relevant UN treatis taht govern justifications for war, and prove to me that Israeli wars were illegal.

This is the rest of your claim:

...which Israel has violated at least 4 times in its history of starting bloody wars. 

So, I want to see proof that Israel has illegally gone to war "at least" 4 times. It seems odd to me you aren't sure about how many times Israel has illegally gone to war, since you claim it is very clear, but whatever.

And then after you've actually provided the justifications for war according to the UN, I will point you to your friend Ostaad admitting just last night in this thread that Iran has been supplying missiles to Hazbollah for years with the express purpose of allowing HA to bombard Israeli towns and cities. If what Ostaad says is true (and is there really anyone here who thinks it isn't?) then Israel could attack Iran tomorrow on the grounds of self-defense and be justified in doing so. And if you actually read the UN Charter and other UN treaties on warfare you will see that to be true. And since that is the topic of this discussion, I wonder what you are up to? If you attemp to prove your own case, you will end up proving the Islamic Republic is in the wrong, that the Israelis are in the right, and that Israel hasjustification under international law to wage war on Iran. Good going, Q!

Craig

As far as the latter, I was speaking of Iranian-American lobbying groups (or individuals) who wish to influence American foreign policy.

Does not matter. My point was that They HAVE distanced themselves from those radical positions IRI has adopted. Besides. Your words and your tone clearly put the iranian people on the spot. Now you are saying you were talking about all those Lobbyin groups...

In this discussion thread, I've been talking about people here on Iranian.com - again, neither the government nor the people of Iran

Yes I am. Should I use statements by people who aren't here to refute things that are said here? I'm not suer what you are trying to say. I'm not the one who allowed this anti-Israel, anti-West ideology to flourish on IC.

 That you think what you read here necessarily reflect the opinions of people in iran.I don't care who does not refute what is being said in here and No i don't want statements! Just don't base your judgment of what you see and read in here. That is all i was trying to say.

In fact, I've been complaining for years about how the moderators here have been using their privilidges to create what seems like a twisted version of Iranian public opinion. Well, what can I do about that besides confront the people who try to exploit this website for propaganda purposes?

Hey! confront them all you want! rip them apart. Go and meet them. Do all of the above or non of the above.

I can't fix it. I can't get all the people who left this place to come back. I can't get all the people who came here in the past and were repulsed by what they found to give it another try. I said several comments ago, I take what people say at face value here, and proceed from there. 

May be taking things at their face value is exactly what you should be refraining from? You know, digging a little deeper would be a good thing to do sometimes.:)

I don't really understand why you want to extrapolate what I say to individuals on this website to all Iranians.

I am not. If you really think that you know how iranians feel and damn sure of it, then you could have made it clear from the beginning instead of going on and on about how IRANIANS have no right to criticize Israel on humanitarian grounds! When you use the term iranians as a collective term, Minds don't authomatically swing towards the Iranians On IC. You know?

Dan Burton

Regardless of what you think about this character, whether he is the mouthpiece of AIPAC or not. Just argue against what he says.  Is he wrong to suggest Israel will attack the moment she feels IRI can access Nuclear arms? If not, then he could be any piece of sh*t you like, he is still right.

If you disagree with what he proposes to stop the Israeli attack, then come up with alternative proposal. If you don’t have one, then shut up and let the guy spill his guts out. Not that it means that’s what’s going to happen. But, he can get credit for speaking what he thought was the truth.

Yawn! Craig

If it's so clear and it is so obvious Israel has behaved illegally, I'm sure you will have no trouble providing the treaty text and explaining exactly where, when and how Israel has in violation "at least" 4 times.

UN Resolutions Against Israel, 1955-1992

1. Resolution 106: "... 'Condemns' Israel for Gaza raid"

2. Resolution 111: "...'condemns' Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people"

3. Resolution 127: "...'recommends' Israel suspend its 'no-man's zone' in Jerusalem"

4. Resolution 162: "...'urges' Israel to comply with UN decisions"

5. Resolution 171: "...determines flagrant violations' by Israel in its attack on Syria"

6. Resolution 228: "...'censures' Israel for its attack on Samu in the West Bank, then under Jordanian control"

7. Resolution 237: "...'urges' Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees"

8. Resolution 248: "...'condemns' Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan"

9. Resolution 250: "... 'Calls' on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem"

10. Resolution 251: "... 'Deeply deplores' Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250"

11. Resolution 252: "...'declares invalid' Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital"

12. Resolution 256: "... 'Condemns' Israeli raids on Jordan as 'flagrant violation"

13. Resolution 259: "...'deplores' Israel's refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation"

14. Resolution 262: "...'condemns' Israel for attack on Beirut airport"

15. Resolution 265: "... 'Condemns' Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan"

16. Resolution 267: "...'censures' Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem"

17. Resolution 270: "...'condemns' Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon"

18. Resolution 271: "...'condemns' Israel's failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem"

19. Resolution 279: "...'demands' withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon"

20. Resolution 280: "....'condemns' Israeli's attacks against Lebanon"

21. Resolution 285: "...'demands' immediate Israeli withdrawal form Lebanon"

22. Resolution 298: "...'deplores' Israel's changing of the status of Jerusalem"

23. Resolution 313: "...'demands' that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon"

24. Resolution 316: "...'condemns' Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon"

25. Resolution 317: "...'deplores' Israel's refusal to release Arabs abducted in Lebanon"

26. Resolution 332: "...'condemns' Israel's repeated attacks against Lebanon"

27. Resolution 337: "...'condemns' Israel for violating Lebanon's sovereignty"
28. Resolution 347: "...'condemns' Israeli attacks on Lebanon"

29. Resolution 425: "...'calls' on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon"

30. Resolution 427: "...'calls' on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon'

31. Resolution 444: "...'deplores' Israel's lack of cooperation with UN peacekeeping forces"

32. Resolution 446: "...'determines' that Israeli settlements are a 'serious obstruction' to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention"

33. Resolution 450: "...'calls' on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon"

34. Resolution 452: "...'calls' on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories"

35. Resolution 465: "...'deplores' Israel's settlements and asks all member states not to assist Israel's settlements program"

36. Resolution 467: "...'strongly deplores' Israel's military intervention in Lebanon"

37. Resolution 468: "...'calls' on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return"

38. Resolution 469: "...'strongly deplores' Israel's failure to observe the council's order not to deport Palestinians" 39. Resolution 471: "... 'Expresses deep concern' at Israel's failure to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention"

40. Resolution 476: "... 'Reiterates' that Israel's claims to Jerusalem are 'null and void'

41. Resolution 478: "...'censures (Israel) in the strongest terms' for its claim to Jerusalem in its 'Basic Law'

42. Resolution 484: "...'declares it imperative' that Israel re-admit two deported Palestinian mayors"

43. Resolution 487: "...'strongly condemns' Israel for its attack on Iraq's nuclear facility"

44. Resolution 497: "...'decides' that Israel's annexation of Syria's Golan Heights is 'null and void' and demands that Israel rescind its decision forthwith"

45. Resolution 498: "...'calls' on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon"

46. Resolution 501: "...'calls' on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops"

47. Resolution 509: "...'demands' that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and unconditionally from Lebanon"

48. Resolution 515: "...'demands' that Israel lift its siege of Beirut and allow food supplies to be brought in"

49. Resolution 517: "...'censures' Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions and demands that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon"

50. Resolution 518: "...'demands' that Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in Lebanon"

51. Resolution 520: "...'condemns' Israel's attack into West Beirut"

52. Resolution 573: "...'condemns' Israel 'vigorously' for bombing Tunisia in attack on PLO headquarters

53. Resolution 587: "...'takes note' of previous calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw"

54. Resolution 592: "...'strongly deplores' the killing of Palestinian students at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops" 55. Resolution 605: "...'strongly deplores' Israel's policies and practices denying the human rights of Palestinians

56. Resolution 607: "...'calls' on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention

57. Resolution 608: "...'deeply regrets' that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians"

58. Resolution 636: "...'deeply regrets' Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians

59. Resolution 641: "...'deplores' Israel's continuing deportation of Palestinians

60. Resolution 672: "...'condemns' Israel for violence against Palestinians at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount

61. Resolution 673: "...'deplores' Israel's refusal to cooperate with the United Nations

62. Resolution 681: "...'deplores' Israel's resumption of the deportation of Palestinians

63. Resolution 694: "...'deplores' Israel's deportation of Palestinians and calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return

64. Resolution 726: "...'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of Palestinians

65. Resolution 799: "...'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of 413 Palestinians and calls for their immediate return.

KouroshS

Craig, You have failed misrabely in making the distinction between the
people of Iran and the IRI. Were you not the only one who insisted that
iranians should distance themselevs from the extremists in order to be
able to make an even minimal impact on US foreign policy?

As far as the latter, I was speaking of Iranian-American lobbying groups (or individuals) who wish to influence American foreign policy.

In this discussion thread, I've been talking about people here on Iranian.com - again, neither the government nor the people of Iran.

You are not
even bothering to look. Oh i am sorry, You are looking,... But your are
keeping your focus on IC only.

Yes I am. Should I use statements by people who aren't here to refute things that are said here? I'm not suer what you are trying to say. I'm not the one who allowed this anti-Israel, anti-West ideology to flourish on IC. In fact, I've been complaining for years about how the moderators here have been using their privilidges to create what seems like a twisted version of Iranian public opinion. Well, what can I do about that besides confront the people who try to exploit this website for propaganda purposes? I can't fix it. I can't get all the people who left this place to come back. I can't get all the people who came here in the past and were repulsed by what they found to give it another try. I said several comments ago, I take what people say at face value here, and proceed from there. 

A real and Legitimate way of gauging how
People especially THOSE IN IRAN , feel about this. How fair and
balanced. Not many in iran play the role of Combatants and if you had
paid attention You would have easily figured this out.

I don't really understand why you want to extrapolate what I say to individuals on this website to all Iranians. Nothing I can do about it, though. I was so disgusted by the amount of vitriol people heer were heaping upon Israel during the Gaza war that I stopped coming here for several months. I know damn good and well that isn't how most Iranians feel. I read Arab blogs and the hatred here was an order of magnitude worse than it was onany Arab blog I know of. Since when are Iranians more Palestinian than Palestinians are? lol.

Yeah and my grandpa was the frikkin' Pope!

That BTW is just one piece of (mis)information that will NOT cover my entire series of tracks.

Seriously, can any one who supports any kind of military attack on Iran (ANY KIND AT ANY SCALE), tell me how they can claim they care about Iran or Iranians? How do you marry the two? It's the abusive husband mentality: I beat you because I love you, want to protect you and know what is good for you. Or do you all seriously think that others are THAT stupid?

Attacking Iran will ONLY strengthen the IRI so if your desire is to be rid of them you are on the wrong track. Iranians will, if put in that position, join forces, yes EVEN WITH IR, to defend their country. A.N and his clan are no fools although NetanYABU clearly displayed he certainly is when he showed up to the UN with Nazi documents to show the world that the Holocaust really did happen! All the while A.N sat there and let the yabu do his dirty work of diverting attention from IR's real atrocities. If Yabu had a brain AND good intentions, he would work toward peace and disarm A.N and anyone who supports him on the Israel issue.

Who had the Ajeel? Pass some along please.

Q

The UN recognizes clear criteria for pre-emptive action against an imminent threat...

If it's so clear and it is so obvious Israel has behaved illegally, I'm sure you will have no trouble providing the treaty text and explaining exactly where, when and how Israel has in violation "at least" 4 times. And if it's so obvious, why is it you don't seem to be sure how many times Israel violated the UN charter? That's any interesting concept of "clear" you've got, isn't it?

EPC and Fateh

 thought I was pretty clear. Iranians don't get to play the "I'm criticizing them on humanitarian grounds" game, because Iran has been waging a proxy war on Israel for decades. When Iranians criticize Israel, they are supporting the war effort of the Islamic Republic. Only neutrals get to play the part of neutrals. That's my opinion, anyway, but it seems like that's how the game has always been played, no? You don't get to be a combatant and at the same time act like you're an objective third party.

Craig, You have failed misrabely in making the distinction between the people of Iran and the IRI. Were you not the only one who insisted that iranians should distance themselevs from the extremists in order to be able to make an even minimal impact on US foreign policy? You are not even bothering to look. Oh i am sorry, You are looking,... But your are keeping your focus on IC only. A real and Legitimate way of gauging how People especially THOSE IN IRAN , feel about this. How fair and balanced. Not many in iran play the role of Combatants and if you had paid attention You would have easily figured this out.

Fateh.

IS that supposed to be funny? cuz i ain't laughing aziz. I don't "partake" aragh sagi or ab shangooli. You live in LA so you should hava access to that stuff, and given your tendency to post blog after blogs, obssessing over your hate toward Islam or islamic related matters, or IRI or whatever the buzz is for the day, it sounds more likely and probable that you "ye fas mizani" before you come on line..

Ostaad: No, not even by a long shot that I am OK with any kind o

Ostaad: No, not even by a long shot that I am OK with any kind of attack.

Not sure how you miss-read that. What I was saying is that any attack on Iran (no matter what or where the targets are) will invite a (rightful and just) retaliation. So to those who think this will be a limited military action and will not affect their country men, women and children they are mistaking.

An attack on Iran is an act of war and will result in nothing but another war.

Mehrdad

Bavafa, are you saying...

that bombing "only nuclear facilities" is OK with you, or I'm missing you point?

No military attack means NO military attack, and no sanctions means NO sanctions. If you think there are exceptions, you certainly have not made yourself clear, yet.

1) KouroshS 2) Ostaad

Kourosh jan, I think you answer my posts very late at night or perhaps maybe when have partaken some aab shangooli or vodka or maybe even some terrryak.  Since I can't make heads or tails out of what you write, I have to deffer responding.

Mr. or Mrs. Ostaad, you bring up ONE instance written and published in Wikipidea.  Can you step back and see how pathetic is your attempt?

I am not Palestinian.  Neither am I an Arab.  Israel and the Jews have never done anything to hurt me or my family.  My own country men who call themselves Muslims have done much harm to my wife's family and I have seen as a young man what my grand father, a high level Muslim clergy did to people around him.  So, while its true I am no fan of Islam or the Islamic Republic, I don't have any reason to unlike you, hate Israel.

As far as atrocities committed by people against innocent people by governments, there are soooooo many governments to fault, including IRI that you need to make a full time job out of it.

No why you and your type have such hatred for Israel and Israel only, you need to tell us. 

Ex programmer

Ex programmer Craig

Perhaps it is time to agree to disagree. I don't think I will be able to convince you that criminal nature of Israel has nothing to do with criminal nature of IRI and you surely have not been able to convince me that I should turn a blind eye on Israel because there is another menace in the world.

Noush Arzu

Maybe it would help if we define "wining the war" and then every one could decide if they won or not.

And in regards to bombing Iran and Iranian, how can you or any one guarantee that only the nuclear facilities will be bombed? Wouldn't Iran have the right to self defense and retaliate? What would it happen then? What if Iran sent some of the its own missiles to hit Israel Nuke sites? Wouldn't that be a fair response to their aggression and start a much bigger war. Or is it your position that it would be fine and just for Israel to bomb other nations but retaliation would not be just or fair? Well, even if you and few like you feel that way most Iranians don't and they will retaliate.

Mehrdad

Simple Answer ...

Dakhaleh Adam ...

"Don't Bomb My Country" -Reza Pahlavi ( Journal Du Dimanche)

//www.payvand.com/news/09/jun/1103.html

Simple question

Israeli/Palestinian issue being a totally alien matter to the  Iranian political affairs, can be be easily discussed and proven.

My simple question is why all supporters of Israel who appear here belong to the Pahlavis propaganda organization only.

The Pahlavis must disclose the source and amount of their wealth.

Q

I wonder if you know just how many times the IRI has violated the rights of its own people and those around the world, as in the rape, torture and murder of countless Iranian protesters, the liquidation of over 20,000 political prisoners in the summer of 1988, the bombing of a Jewish community center in Argentina, the Kobar Towars, the 1983 marine barracks in Lebanon, assasinations of dissidents in exile, etc., etc.?l

Have you ever heard of the saying "the pot calling the kettle black?" Go look into it, that way you won't sound so shamelessly self-serving. Just a thought.

LONG LIVE THE GLORY OF KUROSH 

"forced to attack" is akin to sexual assaulter defense

"she made me do it."
"she asked for it."
"I had to."

such patent nonsense. The UN recognizes clear criteria for pre-emptive action against an imminent threat, which Israel has violated at least 4 times in its history of starting bloody wars.

bencross, Faramarz, Ayhab and bavafa

First off, Ayhab, why do you, in so many of your posts, sound so disingeneous? You write, "Same groups who were shedding crocodile tears for the demonstrator just few months ago, now are ready to bomb them all." 

I hardly doubt that anybody is calling for the bombing of all the Iranians who demonstrated in June. They want to bomb the nuclear weapons facilities, not "all the demonstrators" -- do you understand the difference between the two?

bencross -- the reason so many Islamists love to discuss the Palestinian/Israel issue is because it is a form of misdirection for them. Whenever you corner your garden variety Islamist on some evil deed that the IRI has committed against the people of Iran, they bring up Israel and the Palestinians -- almost always to take attention away from the IRI so as to manipulate the emotions of Iranian muslims and direct their hostilities against the state of Israel. It's always America's fault. It's always Israel's fault. It's never the fault of the murdering-rapists who rule Iran.

bavafa -- you say that Americans have "tasted defeat" in Iraq? Last I heard, the surge worked beautifully in Iraq. I dare say, America has finally won that war, despite the best efforts of the wretched mullahs in Iran.

Last and certainly not least, Faramarz -- I completely agree with you as you write, "One thing is sure. The IRI regime is bad for Iran.  The enemy of the IRI is my friend while they serve this purpose." 

While I, and any first grader who's not a retard, would understand this logic, our house hezbollahis, conviniently stick their heads in the sand whenever the sounds of reason and logic penetrates their ear drums. 

LONG LIVE THE GLORY OF KUROSH 

Bavafa

Really? Lets see how many conflicts/war US has been involve with since lets say 1970

Vietnam - yes

Somalia - no. Civil War caused humaitarian crisis. UN intervened, using American troops as peacekeepers.

Lebanon - no. PLO caused Lebanon to becaome a failed state, caused civil war, provoked Israeli invasion. Multlateral agreement between all parties (including PLO) led to a peacekeeping mission to evacuate the PLO from under Israeli guns. Due to Iranian meddling and Israel failing to abide by its commitments to withdraw, Lebanon went into a downward spiral. (US left in early 1984 and never returned. Iran is still there)

Iraq - yes & no - it was a UN sanctioned war. Universally supported.

Panama - no. police action.

Colombia -  no.

Haiti - no. UN peacekeeping mission.

Bosnia - no. UN peacekeeping mission. US dragged into the mission kicking and screaming.

Iraq again - why no mention of Afghanistan? You like that one?

Of course the list goes on and on.

lol. Most of what you listed were bogus. If you need help making a list of actual interventions the US has been involved in, I could probably help you. But I won't.

And none of these countries
had attacked the United States.

I'll just use one of your examples. Lebanon. Who attacked who in Lebanon? Are you capable of answering that honestly? Or are you going to claim that the US deserved to be attacked just for being there? And attacked by Iranians at that? So what were the Iranians doing there? Do Iranians deserve to be attacked just for being in another country? Do we get to kill Iranians just for being in Lebanon? Or for being in Iraq? Is that the way it works? Or does that rule only apply to Israelis and Americans?

Is it customary to stage a coup against the people of another country that is your ally?

I don't think iran was an ally in 1953. Iran sided with the Nazis in World War II. Mossadeq was just a fewyears later. And he was very much in jeoprady of becoming a Soviet puppet... willingly or not, I don't know. You aren't providing any context for this event. You also aren't beinbg very honest about teh extent of US involvement. As far as I know the US just provided a plan. That is all. And it seems our covert plots used to actually work at least some of the time, way back then.

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'%C3%A9tat

Thanks for the link but I've read up on that (at the urging of people here) a lot more than I ever wanted to. I don't know if the US was right or wrong - it was long before I was even born - but I don't think its as clear cut as a lot or Iranians seem to want to make it out to be.

No, I am not from Switzerland, but based on that every one that
shares this view about Israel must be Iranian then, ha?

I was just wondering how an Iranian accuses Israel of fascism with a straight face? israel is a democracy, however flawed it may be. The Islamic Republic is a totalitarian system that qualifies as fascist by any definition I know of. And you went on to accuse them of being racist and mistreating minorities? Do you even read some of the postings on this website about what's happening in Iran, day by day?

Also, I don't
accuse them, I repeat what has been established by fact finding groups
and there are plenty of impartial human rights group/UN body and other
impartial bodies that have document their abuses.

Well, good. Why not leave it to them whose job it is to babysit Israel? And you can worry about human righst abuses in Iran. And one of these days when you've got some extra time and energy you can try to figure out why the UN worries so much about Israelis and Palestinians, and doesn't even have time to send a delegation to iran to investigate charges of human rights abuses even when a Nobel Peace Prize winning Iranian humanitarian practically begs them to?

I whole heartedly disagree with that. As despicable the regime in
Tehran is, they can't possibly be compared to Israel.

I'll just leave that hanging right there and not comment any further :P

Ex programmer Craig: following your format

"We don't get involved in every conflict around the world. We get criticized all the time for NOT getting involved when people think we should have."

Really? Lets see how many conflicts/war US has been involve with since lets say 1970

Vietnam, Somalia, Lebanon, Iraq, Panama, Colombia, Haiti, Bosnia, Iraq again. Of course the list goes on and on. And none of these countries had attacked the United States.

"At that time, Iran was ALSO a US ally"

Is it customary to stage a coup against the people of another country that is your ally?

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'%C3%A9tat

"What is your background then, that you were call the Israelis fascists and accuse them of treating minorities unfairly? You must be from Switzerland?"

No, I am not from Switzerland, but based on that every one that shares this view about Israel must be Iranian then, ha? Also, I don't accuse them, I repeat what has been established by fact finding groups and there are plenty of impartial human rights group/UN body and other impartial bodies that have document their abuses. The recent Gaza war is a good example of that and the fact that they are illegally (based on international law) occupying others land. I am not making it up, it is the UN charter, Geneva convention that states that. You don't believe me, look it up.

"When Iranians criticize Israel, they are supporting the war effort of the Islamic Republic"

And I thought I was clear about that as well that criticizing one does not equates in supporting another one.

US just joined other nations criticizing Israel for the violations that took place during Gaza war… does that mean that US now is on IRI side?

"I think we are both aware that the misconduct of the IRI in virtually every category is far more eggregious than that of Israel. Do you disagree with me on that? "

I whole heartedly disagree with that. As despicable the regime in Tehran is, they can't possibly be compared to Israel. They have not attacked/occupied any country in the last 200 years, they don't have an apartheid state policy and they have not created a Ghetto to enslave others in it. At the same time, I don't mean to paint a rosy picture out of them as they sure have their share of crimes on their hands.

"Snipping your list of US transgressions. I thought we were discussing whether or not there was a history of hostility between the US and the Islamic Republic?You seem to be agreeing with me that there is, no? "

Yes, absolutely. Neither has been so innocent. But you seem to suggest that Iran had had aggression towards US without any cause. One day they woke up and said lets hate Americans.

"I'm not buying that at all. Sorry. I think the Ayatollahs wanted to do something so bad and so unforgivable that there would be no going back from it."

You keep on thinking that, just like some still think Saddam was involved in 9/11 or he had the nukes… but the documents says otherwise. It is just that if we want to open our eyes and find out the truth or just believing what our politicians tell us.

Regards

Mehrdad

no more Israel talk

Talking constantly about Israel and Palestine doesn't free Iran. I thought Iranians demonstrated in the last rally what they care for.

But I gather it's a good diversion from discussing how to free Iran. I know some of you don't want to have any part in freeing Iran and the goal is to divert the discussion to protect IRI from its opposition.

This won't work. If you really want to feel useful, wait until Israel and Palestine invite you to join their delegations to sit at Israel-Palestine negotiation table. And in the meantime, try to push Israel and Palestine to negotiate, if you have a shred of dignity left in you.

... and leave Iran and Iran discussion alone.

Bavafa

why do you think US should feel to get
itself directly involved in every conflict around the world and Iran
should not feel that way? Is it because we have the power or is it
because we are the force of good?

We don't get involved in every conflcit around the world. We get criticized all the time for NOT getting involved when people think we should have. Since we've been talking about Israel and Palestine, I'll restriict my comments to that. The US declared Israel a military ally in 1973 as a result of the USSR arming the Arabs and prepping them to go to war.Nixon decided that was a Cold War showdown between us and the Soveits. Israel has been an ally of the US ever since. At that time, Iran was ALSO a US ally. So when the mullahs decided to jump in with both feet in Lebanon in the early 1980s, they knew very well what they weer getting into, and they did it anyway.

But more directly, my (personal) position has nothing to do with
Iran, US or holly shmolly. I am so oppose to the Zionist because it is
a racist regime, because it deals with Palestinians in a fascist way.

I had thought you were Iranian? No? What is your background then, that you were call teh israelis fascists and accuse them of treating minorities unfairly? You must be from Switzerland?

It would make a big difference to me, for me it is not "you are with
us or against us" or just black and white. I could be supporting one
set of policies and disagree or oppose another set, so it is not either
or but I guess for you it is.

Yes, for me as far as the Islamic Republic goes it is black or white. And it's all black with the IRI.

You may want to equate criticizing Israel with supporting IRI. That is your choice but it is a naïve way of thinking.

I thought I was pretty clear. Iranians don't get to play the "I'm criticizing them on humanitarian grounds" game, because Iran has been waging a proxy war on Israel for decades. When Iranians criticize Israel, they are supporting the war effort of the Islamic Republic. Only neutrals get to play the part of neutrals. That's my opinion, anyway, but it seems like that's how the game has always been played, no? You don't get to be a combatant and at the same time act like you're an objective third party.

There has not been any case (at least that I know of) that has been
brought up to UN against Iran that involves war crimes, crimes against
humanity or any thing in that nature that has been shielded by any of
the countries.

Really? The 1979 siezure of our embassy in Tehran was a massive breach of the Vienna Conventions. The largest breach of diplomatic treaties in recorded history, actually. I'm not going to argue semantics with you... I think we are both aware that the misconduct of the IRI in virtually every category is far more eggregious than that of Israel. Do you disagree with me on that?

But I am still oppose/criticize any interference of any
of the countries including China and Russia that blocks improvement of
human rights in Iran. I am deadly oppose to their passiveness in those
regards, just as I am oppose to any government that shields Saudi
Arabia or alike regime.

That's good to hear. Maybe there's some hope left in the world after all.

Snipping your list of US transgressions. I thought we were discussing whether or not there was a history of hostility between the US and the Islamic Republic?You seem to be agreeing with me that there is, no?

The hostage situation was an act to prevent another
coup.

I'm not buying that at all. Sorry. I think the Ayotollahs wanted to do something so bad and so unforgiveable that there would be no going back from it. Just in case people started having second thoughts.

...

Deleting comment to Ostaad. I just remembered I said a couple days ago I didn't wanna talk to him!

Framarz,

Google two things: C-802 and SAAR 5, one is a 40-year old missile given to Hezbollah by Iran, and the other is Israel's most advance surface ship built by Northrop Grumman and equipped with a modern Raytheon AEGIS combat system.

And this is what happened to your super heroes:

On July 14, 2006, while enforcing a blockade off Beirut, the INS Hanit was attacked by Hezbollah, using an Iranian version of the Chinese C-802
missile. An explosion caused the landing pad to cave in and be engulfed
in flames that threatened the aviation fuel storage below, and the
flames were not fully extinguished until several hours later. The ship
suffered some damage, but stayed afloat, got itself out of the line of
fire, and made the rest of the journey back to Ashdod for repairs on its own.[1]. Four IDF personnel were killed.

An investigation into the incident by the Israeli Navy concluded that the missile was indeed a C-802 which hit a crane in the rear of the ship, that the ship's radar
was not fully functional at the time, that both the ECM and the Barak
anti-missile systems were in a two-minute stand-by mode and that the
ship's captain was not aware of that fact.[2]

Source: //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa%27ar_5-class_corve...

The ONLY excuse Israelis came up with was that its super modern electronic warfare system was put on "stand-by"! Yeah, right!

Faramarz, why do you get a kick out of putting down what you want us to believe is your own country of birth, Iran?!!! You seem to be suffering from an acute school-boy crush on Israel and anything Israeli!

You also seem to not be aware of the fact that those "7",  you seem to pull that figure out of your hat or have been reading IDF glossy brochure, were vectored by the US AWACS operating in S. Arabia.

Then you drop this gem, "...no radar system to speak of". The only reason you can't "speak of" what types of radar Iran has is merely because you have no clue about what Iran has or does not have. So Faramarz jaan, bykhod beh maghzet feshaar nayaar, nothing is gonna come out ;<{) 

BTS. I'll be happy to share my aajeel if you want to watch the " I was shot down over Iran and I love my mom and my little brother Moshe" show on the Sedaa va Seemaa. Just let me know, I'll FedEX the stuff right away.