Misc

Mr. Haghighi

While it is certainly agreed that the freedom of speech is not absolute, no one's rights are being threatened or harmed in any way here.

In the case of Iranian.com, we are dealing with name calling and labelling. Notice I said label and not libel. While the accusations may appear malicious on the surface, in reality they represent less harm than a mosquito bite.

If we were to litigate every instance where someone has been called a Zionist or an Israeli or CIA spy, or an IRI spy on this site, the court dockets will end up being as long as a freeway. Personally, I have called several people traitors on this site. So what? If I'm saying something wrong, they can correct me. But they don't. I have been called a Zionist so many times that if it were even .001% true, I'd have TWO seats in the Knesset. But am I going to cry libel or slander or threaten to sue? No. I don't have to resort to civil suits to put someone in their proper place.

The problem as I see it is not just about freedom of speech and how it is interpreted by the immigrant community. In the case of this website, it's a matter of people who think their opinion, position, point of view, political or religious stance is the only valid one in existence, and that everyone who differs is full of hot air. (I'll tell someone they're full of it, but I will also give them the courtesy of telling them why I think they are). Iranians have this tendency to want to be right all the time. No one here wants to be wrong, or considered to be wrong, because it wounds their very fragile pride and ego. If anything, that is what is being harmed.

The appeaser mentality

Nowadays, it is a sign of intellect and love for humanity to denounce those who fight terrorism.
According to these people we should first find out why they (the likes of Bin Laden) commit terrorism. Sit around a table and apologize for our existence and tell them we believe in their morality and interpretation of world order. We should tell them, “please don’t kill any more of our innocent people”.
We should tell them “You are right and have every reason to wipe USA off the map”. Our previous administrations have committed such atrocities against Islam that they deserve your revenge. But, please have mercy on our souls. We promise to accept velayat-e vaghih. There is no doubt in our mind that your nuclear technology is only for peaceful purposes. We have no objection to your enriching Uranium. It is your alienable right.

We promise to help you dominate the Middle East. Get rid of Saudi regim and Jordan’s king as well as removing Egypt’s government. Iraq has always been yours. The criminal Bush administration made a big mistake and we promise to leave that territory for you. People of United States have voted for change and we promise to not listen to the Israeli lobby and help you throw those bastards into the sea.

We promise to make Islam the religion of United State and replace our constitution with Islamic sharia laws. But, please, we beg you, let us have security in our borders and don’t terrorize the people who voted for us.

Allah-o Akbar, Komeini Rahbar

On behalf of my constituency,

I am Barak Obama

thanks Q, but no

thanks Q, but no need...appreciate the offer in any case...kind regards, Sadegh...

no problem, my email

no problem, my email address is sadegh@eterazonline.com...If I have anything worth discussing, I'll be sure to get in touch...all the best, Sadegh...

I think you have to be registered user for that Mammad,

You can both email me if you prefer and I can send it back to both of you qumars@gmail.com

Sadegh

Sadegh:

I'll be happy to, except that I do not know how. Can you tell me precisely how to do it?

Dear Mammad, could you

Dear Mammad, could you please email me via the Iranian, since I would very much like to make your acquaintance...Kind regards, Sadegh...

RE: Freedom of speech and iranian

Haghighi: You claim you are a lawyer (without mentioning the specialty) so you should above all people note that the statements you made are only your interpretation of freedom of speech. You are not a judge or the jury and most importantly the issue here is not a legal one but it is more an ethical and moral one. I think you are suffering from being an “immigrant” lawyer and not really knowing the judicial system of where you live and how and who makes the final decisions on legal matters or something else. Stating some obvious doesn’t cut it here.

All jamshid and others are saying is that JJ should play it fair and let both sides be heard and argue their points within reason and rational limits. Personal tastes and subjectivity of moderators should be minimized by a clear definition of “nothing is sacred” so everyone knows where they stand. This would serve our community far greater than just leaning toward particular views or creating an impression of unfairness and censorship which leads to an atmosphere of mistrust that our society suffers greatly from. Many of my comments have been filtered and never made it through either, they contained absolutely no profanity or libel terms. Moreover, if particular issues and views are off limit then they also should be mentioned so people know exactly what to expect. that's all.

I agree..AnonymousIrooni

I have also not seen anything nearly as objectionable from Jamshid than from the others.

Which personal attacks are you claiming JJ?

Because I and others here can also claim many. Are you warning the perpetrators of those too?

To me, forcing one to be silent is just making that person's point more valid.

Someone here said there is a "debate" going on here. This is hardly a debate. It is a lynching and a complete inability to tolerate someone's views.

And as for GCBW, gimme a break. Jamshid's response is not to those he disagrees with, but to the threat of being banned. Very different. And I guess the likes of Q can just go on here no problem, labeling people as "Tehrangelesi", and ridiculing those who don't share his views.

Lovely. Bravo JJ.

BE FAIR.

where is FAIRNESS

I find it very disturbing that Jamshid is being threatened and singled out for "personal attacks". Where are his personal attacks? He just challenges people and expresses his opinion. And the challenges he poses are done quite rightfully.

When people post lies and exaggerations, they should not expect blind agreement.

We Iranians have suffered handsomely from lies after lies after lies given to us by revolutionaries, and when we question those lies we are labelled and threatened.

If he is going to be warned, there are many people that should be warned before him. People who when you say something they disagree with, they label you "Tehrangelesi" or "Pahlavi Lover".

I am disappointed in JJ unless he is warning others as well. I guess some things are "sacred" after all. Just not the right ones.

BE FAIR.

Thank you Q

Thank you so much for your excellent points.

I am for freedom of speech, and support it for everyone, even those who baselessly and constantly attack me, you, and people like us. But, freedom of speech is not the same as freedom of making baseless accusations. Mr. Haghighi made several excellent points.

You and I may or may not agree on many subjects, but we surely agree on one thing: That this column should be a vehicle for polite and constructive debate, rather than making personal attacks.

Thank you also on Tondteez's behalf. I know him well.

I don't understand Zion

You wrote this "Of course they never did any such thing to Armenians, your ancestors, and the general `christian` card is irrelevant and simply out of place in this discussion."

My responses are the following:
a. you must not know your history. Armenia was the first country to convert to Christianity. Armenians actually lived under Roman rule for centuries. In the first few centuries after birth of Christ, the Roman Empire was fighting at the Armenian frontier and taking many Christian prisoners. They were *exactly* my ancestors. Armenian slaves and prisoners helped spread Christianity in Roman empire.
b. being Armenian is not the point. What if I was the decendent of an early Christian in Syria, Turkey or a Christian cultist in Rome? The point still stands. Why fight it?
c. if you really believe this, it means that non-european jews and Israeli citizens cannot claim any tragedy from the Holocaust.
d. the analogy is the one I made. What you label as "correct" is the one that helps you make your point.
e. so just as many have pointed out. The point of view that blames Arabs for everything is being selective and only uses these crimes as an excuse. If it cared about crimes, it would care about all crimes including those by Persians, Jews and Europeans.
f. Persians were actually very cruel to Armenian christians. Arabs were historically very tolerant of us. But I don't hate today's Iranians for it. The point is that I don't hate Iranians or Italians. I am not like Jamshid. You miss the point that I was making completely.

thank you for giving me the freedom to conclude. It is very generous of you.

Jamshid: "Goodbye Cruel World"

Jamshid's behavior is so predictable, they even have a specific acronym for it: GBCW. Allow me to quote Urban Dictionary:

Often found on blogs or forums when a member disagrees with a particular subject matter to such a degree that they decide to leave the forum/blog forever. In doing so, they often feel compelled to leave a last message explaining why they feel so wronged/slighted and how they will never post again -- this is the GBCW message.

I have seen a few of these before. Hajiagha and few other people even did them here at Iranian. What most of these message have in common is that they are left by people who seek attention.

Contrary to the typical exaggerations of Jamshid and his friends, they have always been the majority of comments on Iranian forums. I am probably the single person who has suffered the most attacks and abuse on this site. They are so used to being the only voice on any social setting that the very presence of even one detractor sends them deep into crazy conspiracy land.

I'm glad that other people like Anonymous8, vanik and Mammad are finally speaking up on regular basis. We can't waste time with these people. We are talking about bombs falling on the heads of Iranians.

The very fact that there is a debate about this piece of video is extremely disturbing. It proves to me that many people who claim to be antiwar, are very dishonest. 

Zion's first message on the Bolton video was: "He's right on". Jamshid saw fit to attack Mammad right off the bat, no mention of the video.

Last week I posted the video of Barack Obama opposing the Iraq war in 2002. Jamshid posted a "response" which was exactly this:

by jamshid on Sat May 10, 2008 10:57 PM CDT

... another "ahmagh" like Jimmy Carter, maybe even worst than Carter. The things I hear about Obama are similar to the things they used to say about Jimmy Carter when Jimbo was running for presidency; that Carter is different; that the US and the world needs a breadth of fresh air; that Carter is "of" the people, and other similar bullshits.

I have no problem with any of these posting. Sometimes I respond just so Jamshid can "expose" me. But I have not objected to these things, even though they are clearly worthless.

But Jamshid has a nasty habit of accusing people (myself and others who use our real names) of being IRI agents, taking bribes, being complicit in terrorism, etc, without the slightest pretense of proof. This is not only unacceptable, illegal, but extremely cowardly given Jamshid's fake name and the fact that he would never say things like this to anyone's face.

Thank You Dear Mr. Haghighi. It's nice to feel validated by an expert for something I have been arguing for months.

Franky I'm not sure how JJ is handling it. He certainly has more patience than I do. He has censored me too, many times. Most recently he refused to let me publish what I really think of Sheema Kalbasi. I wasn't happy about that, but I accepted it. It's not going to be perfect but he's not one sided. I respect his "venue" as well.

JJ has set down a standard (personal attacks and profanity) which seems very good to me. Jamshid has indicated that he "can't" change his "writing style". If he is unwilling to follow the same rules everyone else has to follow, I say don't let the door hit you on your way out.

Haghighi is right. Iranians have this warped view of freedom of speech. Actually it's not just Iranians. Many people are opportunistic about the Internet. It's an extremist "all or nothing" position. But in my humble opinion, the real problem is not that many don't understand the concept. They are just unwilling to be fair about it. They want the protection of anonymity (which already speaks volumes about the kind of 'freedom' they seek), but they abuse it. They want to say anything they want without assuming any responsibility.

I fail to understand why it's so hard to just back up things you say with evidence. If you think NIAC is an IRI front organization, why not produce the proof? Or better yet, have homeland security take them away? What is so unreasonable about this?

Vanik, you called it. She's not answering because you made excellent points. Get used to it!

nina, no, my name is Qumars.

Nouraee, please read Mr. Haghighi's post.

Tondreez, thank you for making your excellent points. I wish I had time to get more into this. The clear obsession with arab history only is the key to exposing this prejudice. Jamshid pretended like you said "why aren't you praising arabs." He said "I don't praise Mongols either."

Well why not exactly, because of what Changiz Khan did? Because of that a Mongol citizen today deserves to be called names and his culture insulted? No, baba, Jamshid jan, no one said "praise" them just treat them like any other human being.

Salar, tehrangelesi-e kojaye tehrangeles hastid? tehrangelesi?

Mammad, I do enjoy your thoughtful responses. I'm not a professor like you (I will take the "intellectual" label as a compliment), all I have a BA in a field with almost no Iranians. There is nothing wrong with working for peace, however you choose to contribute to it.

No, you were not

No, you were not making any points. You were and are trying to try out your dirty shots every chance you get, and I find this game too boring to play here.

What I wrote was very relevant to your last comment, if you had the insight to read between the lines. Jamshid never said anything about hating Arabs. What he said actually had nothing to do with arabs. As he himself clearly stated, he is standing against a cultural hegemony imposed by Iranian mullahs of an islamo-arabic culture, which he sees as a continuation of an onslought on Iranians in the past that was neer addressed properly and a wound that was not only never healed but is being exploited to oppress iranians. Icluding particular ideological factions among Arabs that have directly harmed Iranians despite the favourable attitude towards them. In YOUR cheap shots completely twisting what he is saying, you mentioned how Romans and Italians tortured YOUR christian ancestors. Of course they never did any such thing to Armenians, your ancestors, and the general `christian` card is irrelevant and simply out of place in this discussion. The correct analogy that you have conveniently ignored would have been the Ottoman treatment of Armenians. But you, as a people, obviously still cry out against what you percieve as injustice, precisely what Jamshid is talking about concerning Persian history and the calamities imposed on Iranian people in past centuries as well as in the previous war. Moreover your meaningless hypocricy against similar Persian feelings is worse, since you yourselves will not let go of modern day Turks and Turkey. unlike Jamshid`s neutral, if not friendly, position regarding Arabs in general. I don`t like hypocricy and have little respect for hypocrites.

I also know that it is ultimately that exact same case, and wild extrapolations you people are particularly inclined to make about it all over the place, that brings you here to keep jumping in all the threads, and take your cheap shots at Jews and Israel. I know.

I told you both this issues in as laconic a form as I could in my last remark, and I repeat here that I have nothing more to add to it. You are free to conclude from this what you want.

Anonymousaa

If you really believe in what you say about me, prove it. Taking cheap shots at people is easy, writing and speaking with reason, backed up with documented facts, is not.

Instead of taking a cheap shot at me, defend Jamishid's rights to express himself, and let JJ know about it. I support his rights, despite his personal attacks on me and some very hurtful things that he has said about me which, I know, have no basis in truth. We should cherish the freedom of expression that we have, and we truly cherish it when we defend such rights for our allies and foes alike, so long as they do not use it to advocate violence. We should also not confuse freedom of expression with freedom for slander.

I am, first and foremost, a pacifist. My family and I have been greatly hurt by political violence. That is why I am against military attacks on Iran. That is why I am against sanctions against Iran which, as the experience with Iraq demonstrated, would inevitably lead to violence. That is why I was and am against invasion of Iraq. Only a patriotic war is justified, which is why I consider the first two years of Iran/Iraq war as patriotic, but the remaining six years as being against Iran's national interests, the interest of that region, and unjustified violence.

Moreover, I have lived in the US since 1978. I did my graduate work in the US, and since 1984 I have been a professor at a major research university in the US. My political views are all well-known, because I have published many political articles with my full name. The political articles that I have published appear to have been viewed as balanced. I say this because publications both on the left (the Progressive, for example), and on the right (the Commentary, for example), both asked me to write articles for them, which I did.

You can agree or disagree with me. That is perfectly fine with me. But, taking cheap shots at me and people like me, simply because you do not like our views and cannot refute them in a rational and reasoned way, is simply beneath the dignity that any intelligent person should have.

I don't envy JJ's position.

I don't envy JJ's position. It is hard to strike a balance between diverse points of views and your own biases.
To a large extent, Where You Stand Depends on What You See," it is equally true that what you see depends in significant part on where you stand. In other words, there are multiple realities. Truths is not absolute because our perceptions of things shaped by our backgrounds and experiences throughout our lives.

If there are impermissable positions that the owner of this blog deems as unworthy of discussion, he should outline them.

If discussion of certain races and religions are prohibited on this site, it is only fair that it should apply to all religions and all races.If we can't discuss zionists atrocities here on this site, the same rule should apply to Islamist/jihadist's (Islamofascists) atrocities. If we can't discuss Arabs, then we should not be able to disucss the jews and Israelis including the zionists. Bahi's should not criticize muslim and vice versa, and so on.

Dear Jamshid please…..

Don’t leave this site. All those who love a free Iran need informed voices like yours to balance out the kind of poison that is spread by the educated types of Q and Mammad, and their cheerleaders, Dariush, Abarzan, John Carpenter III, Anonymous-2,….

Even if you have to change the style by which you deliver your message, it’s worth doing it. Don’t let the message die. I realize that this website may not have that big of significance in the grand scheme of things, but it has developed enough audience that it can have (as minimal as it may be) influence on the mindset and education of some of the audience.

I wish I had your fluency or that of Zion, Mr Nourai, Mazloom, or samsam,…. to post more and speak my belief. My belief that those cowards cannot hide under the flag of nationalism to support and prolong the life of IRI.

Please don’t leave the debate. I respect you and other pragmatics like Salar who without a doubt can silent with your reasoning the self proclaimed critical thinker of our generation, Q, and our proud jihadist Professor Mammad (aka Hassan Abbasi)

I hope I have not violated any of the standards of “Freedom Of Speech” (as posted by Mr. Haghighi).

Looking forward to more of your informative posts.

I was making a point, Zion

but your reply was is an irrelevant cheap shot in very poor taste. In my experience this means you lose on the substance of the argument.

No Palestinian had anything to do with the Nazi holocaust, so why don't you give it a rest?

THIS.......... is " profanity and personal attack"....!!

hajiagha
Sun Oct 28, 2007 03:15 PM CDT

//hajiagha.tripod.com

ما تو مقر تو خلوت شب داشتیم نماز شب می خوندیم و از اتا ق بغلی صدای آخ و اوخ....میامد و آخوند مقر دا شت کون بچه بسیحی رو می گذا شت.....

• reply
• Flag as offensive

by hajiagha on Sun Oct 28, 2007 03:09 PM CDT

//hajiagha.tripod.com

کس کش من فا میلیم حاحی کیریه مکه هم نرفتم وکیرم هم تو مکه....حنده خونه بری بهتره تا بری مکه لا اقل یک کس گیرت میا د....این آخوند ها آنقدر بدی کردند که من به و حود خدا هم شک دارم.....وام ازدواح هم مربوط بود به 20 سال قبل که در ایران احمق حزب الهی بودم و خر....که آخوند ها سوارم بودند....

Dear Jamshid

Can you please tell us with specifics exactly what you actually said to whom that raised JJ's eyebrows?

I have read your articles and I have not seen anything more objectionable than many of the crap that is printed here by the likes of Q, Abarmard, Xerxes, Faook2000, Almo500, zirak, Mammad, IRANdokht and the rest of the pro IRI gang (who alway deny they are pro IRI).

You have written some of the best and most elequent responses on this site.

Vanik

I presume you are Armenian. I will say this only once, so please pay attention:
We had nothing to do with what the Ottomans did back then, so give it a rest. OK?

Do not get disappointed

Jamshid, I am really sorry to hear this. I see no profanity or personal attacks on your part. I agree with Kaveh, you should not get disappointed.

Q, your arguments are very

Q, your arguments are very similar to Nema Milliania of Iraniantruth?? I was wondering if that is you?

jamshid jan

JJ is not the bad guy here. If you one can't control oneself, why should everyone else suffer more personal attacks? This couldn't possibly be good for his site. I do not blame JJ for stepping in.

I think you should consider emailing the target of your attacks directly. This goes for people who attack you too.

We don't want to read any of them.

Jamshid

Does anyone remember this line from the book "Animal farm" saying:

ALL animals are created EQUAL ........ BUT....some are created MORE equal??

I wish once and for all in this site we could  be informed as to:

What does NOTHING IS SACRED mean .

P.S. Go to " fath-ol-mobin" article and see for yourself what "profanity and personal attack" means in hajiagha's comment !

I don't think "deleting" was a norm until several months ago when the format was changed to this one ....AND....GOD knows who is in charge of moderating comments !

I think I know at least (2)....they revealed themselves here! 

Understanding freedom of speech

As a practicing lawyer, I can say that unfortunately most Iranian Americans do not understand freedom of speech.

Specifically, there are 2 issues that I think need to be understood by us as a community. First, FOS, at least the way it is legally contextualized in USA and most Western countries, does not mean unbounded expression. The classic case is that you cannot yell "fire" in a crowded theater. The reason is that it is easily foreseeable that you will harm others by doing so. So, FOS does not mean taking someone else's rights away, or intentionally harming them. That is the distinction here. We can't be so shortsighted as to think that FOS means "anything goes". I would say, that is a very common misreading of the law by immigrants.

We can all agree for example, that no matter how bad it gets in a verbal argument, I have no right to get angry and pass out posters with the picture of my opponents young child together with address and school route in revenge. I could be thrown in jail for that. I also don't have a right to call my opponents work, talk to his boss and say that he is a pedophile in order to get him fired. I could be sued for harassment for that. I don't even have the right to take out an advertisement in a local newspaper to say that "Ahamd is a terrorist." Unless Ahamd is a public figure, or actually a terrorist, I will definitely be sued for that. The reason is spelled out: it does harm to one's reputation which may or may not have an effect on future earnings and quality of life for that person. It is also a shameful and cowardly thing to do.

There are literally thousands of cases of libel and defamation brought to courts in the United States for things that are very much tame by comparison to what I (horrifyingly) read on Iranian.com. Husband spreads rumors of infidelity about ex-wife, worker publicly accuses co-worker of theft or fraud, employer harasses employee with unfair labels, there are many more examples.

I'm not a cyberlaw expert. But if I had to consider this site, I think accusing people of espionage or illegal activity on behalf of another country is a serious accusation. Verbal insults are common enough to be be dismissed as not having real impact. But anything that threatens life or livelihood is not a joke.

The second issue is the venue. The owners of the site have the right to kick off anybody for any reason. They are not obligated to observe any kind of social norms on their private property. I do not have a user name here, but I am willing to bet there is a contract clause of some kind when you sign up that tells you they can do anything.

The freedom of speech afforded to citizens doesn't mean they have a right to say anything on other people's property. It means, they have a right to say something -without causing harm to others- on their own property or public property.

I can't think of any valid point in civilized conversation that couldn't be made without nasty language or malicious accusations. I hope we as a community realize how to do this in the near future.

I hope the homeland security

I hope the homeland security people are not reading this blog. They might think all Iranians are Jihadist like Mammad et al...

A second note

Jamshid...I, for one, am sorry to see that you are being threatened with account closure for exercising your rights to free speech. After all, it is just ONE of the rights we Iranians do not enjoy back home (no matter how "polite" we may be).

If "nothing is sacred" as the motto goes, then, you should be allowed to express yourself as you please. Language deemed to be profane is simply a judgment call. One man's trash is another's fine art. If someone objects to your opinon, they can either choose to respond, or not. They don't even have to read it to begin with for that matter. I complained about Hajiagha's disgusting cartoons several times, for example. I ended up receiving an email from JJ that he won't cut Hajiagha's site access, based upon the "nothing is sacred" mantra. I would hate to think words carry more weight than pictures depicting sodomy among other sex acts.

As far as "personal attacks" go, Iranians are so damn sensitive, it's both comical and sickening at the same time. If I became bent out of shape every time I was personally attacked, whether on this website or in the so-called "real world", I would have become a hermit in a mental hospital, curled in the fetal position and sucking my thumb in the corner of a heavily padded room. Everyone is so busy jumping on the bandwagon to bash everything American or Western (while they hypocritically enjoy the freedoms the West provides) people have lost sight of the fact that thanks to the IRI, Iran can't even rank as a 3rd world country anymore. Iran has become a joke, and real Iranians have become the butt of that joke.

I will not cave in to pressure either. The IRI, and everyone who supports it are people that I deem to be traitors to the Iranian nation and "real" Iranian people, and I will let them know it. Especially if they are living here in the United States. If these people have the right to express their point of view, then I have an equal right to tell them that they are all full of shit. And if they don't like it? Well, Lufthansa has daily flights to Frankfurt with connections to Tehran.

Just a note

I have been told by JJ that he may close my account if I continue with my usual "profanities" and "personal attacks." I cannot change my style of writing, therefore I am currently contemplating whether I should be visiting this site again or not.

I am saying this so that those who are making any remarks about me would know why I won't respond, at least until I decide what I want to do.

To those opposing the IRI in this site: It seems that things are about to get tough for you folks in this site. The IRI supporters are ganging up and getting the upper hand in here.

I for one, will not give in to JJ's pressure and become a "well behaved" member of oppostion to the criminal IRI, or one that is "acceptable" to the IRI supporters. I prefer to quit this site than to give in!

Jamshid

John Bolton can go "be darak"

Warmongers are grasping at straws trying to justify war. Unfortunately for their cheerleaders, it's too late.

The blood of Iraqis has saved Iran from occupation. Whatever we think of Iraqis, we owe them big time for that.