The pen is mightier than the gun

I translated Bob Dylan's "Just Like a Woman" to Farsi and posted

Hi guys, I finished translating Dylan's "Just Like a Woman" and posted this Farsi translation to my blog and now it is a featured blog. Please read, enjoy, criticize, whatever.  Thanks to Jack, strapme_65 and Afshin Afshar who thru their comments, gave me a pointer or two which helped me in this translation. I was true to spirit of song and the way I translated it, it is open to interpretation.

Dear maxshactman, read my reply to Jack

Dear max, the interpretation that you write about is valid and I am not denying it but this will probably not be the interpretation that I will choose to translate.  Thanks for letting me know about this interpretation and I agree with you that the song should be discussed considering the interpretation that you note.

Dear jack, I like your comment with quote from W. B. Yeats

Dear Jack, earlier this morning, I was thinking that if and when I translate "Just like a woman", I am going to take the interpretation that Dylan is talking about his lover.  The way I would like to translate it, Dylan is going out with some young woman who still has girllike qualities but is becoming like a woman, taking like a woman, being fake like a woman, etc. Then I read your comment again.  I like your quote from W. B. Yeats where you wrote:"Out of the quarrel with others, we make rhetoric; out of the quarrel with ourselves poetry."  I really like this quote and it is true.  Most of the times that I write poetry are when I am affected by some person or some event and I have some intense feelings so I write poetry like you quoted as a quarrel with myself.  However, even if that is the case, Dylan could be quarreling with himself about what to make of this lover.  You know, for me to translate  this song as if Dylan is talking about himself, this would be too hard for me.  Since Dylan agreed that there can be different interpretations of his songs, I am going to take the interpretation that I have a chance to translate. 

Queen Mary is a man

I'm not sure what you are referring to with  " Internet had so many interpretations for this song and some of them were not so appealing."

However, I think you are missing an obvious reading of this song.  Like with so many Dylan songs, there is not one single interpretation, one reason why they are such great songs.  However, I don't see how you can discuss this song without considering the possibilty that Queen Mary is not  a "real woman" or a "more mature woman", but is in fact a man. This is one usual meaning of "queen".  e.g.. quoting from an online dictionary:

informal offensive a male homosexual, typically one regarded as ostentatiously effeminate.

and even more directly to the point, consider Dylan's own introduction to this song, on 11/16/80:

"When I was standing out backstage, and this guy came up to me, he said "You  remember that woman that came up to you about an hour ago with the long red  hair?" And I said, "Yeah I remember that woman." And he said, "She sure was  beautiful, wasn't she?" And I said, "Yes, she was all right." He said "That was me." 

Queen Mary is a man

I'm not sure what you are referring to with  " Internet had so many interpretations for this song and some of them were not so appealing."

However, I think you are missing an obvious reading of this song.  Like with so many Dylan songs, there is not one single interpretation, one reason why they are such great songs.  However, I don't see how you can discuss this song without considering the possibilty that Queen Mary is not  a "real woman" or a "more mature woman", but is in fact a man. This is one usual meaning of "queen".  e.g.. quoting from an online dictionary:

informal offensive a male homosexual, typically one regarded as ostentatiously effeminate.

and even more directly to the point, consider Dylan's own introduction to this song, on 11/16/80:

"When I was standing out backstage, and this guy came up to me, he said "You  remember that woman that came up to you about an hour ago with the long red  hair?" And I said, "Yeah I remember that woman." And he said, "She sure was  beautiful, wasn't she?" And I said, "Yes, she was all right." He said "That was me." 

Thanks Jack and strapme_65

Both of you bring up the point that maybe Dylan is addressing himself in his songs.  I have to think about this. In "Just like a woman", if we accept that baby is Dylan himself, then it means that the first few lines that I translated is all about Dylan. The lines talking about the person making love like a woman and breaking like a little girl. This is getting quite interesting. 

I have this book of Dylan called:"Chronicles", volume one.  I have not read the book.  I bet if I read it, that would help with gaining insight about him which should help in translation. Thanks again for your comments. 

Just Like A Woman

I think that when Dylan's songs get problematic to interpret, it is always good to ask whether he is in effect addressing himself. As the Irish poet W.B. Yeats said, "Out of the quarrel with others, we make rhetoric; out of the quarrel with ourselves poetry." I do think that "Jokerman" is Dylan addressing himself, or perhaps addressing himself as a public figure. I also think that "Just Like A Woman" resonates most profoundly when you consider that the "baby" in the song may be the singer himself.

Jokerman etc

Many "Dylanologists" believe that the jokerman is in fact Dylan himself. I think it is Dylan with a little bit of his persecution complex doing most of the writing.

Dylans best lines are never as good as the verse they come from and the best verse is never as good as the song as a whole. Remember these are songs not poems, they have to stand as singles and album tracks, context is everything.

Oh yeah, anyone who thinks Dylan can't sing needs to listen to "No More Auction Block" or "Moonshiner"

Dear masoudA, thanks for your comments

masoudA: thanks for information you provided about "jokerman".  This song seems even more difficult to translate than average Dylan song.  I think I will start with something easier.  You are welcome about me opening this thread.  I am enjoying it and learning from you and other commentators.  Dylan's voice is not great but it goes with his songs.

Dear Red Wine

Bob parastan dylan !! loool that was very funny.   

Nothing - Nowhere - comapres to our literature.    Eepecialy teh artistic side of our literature.   But while there may be very little commonality with our culture - why should it stop us enjoy the music? especilay since every now and then the pretty music is complemented with a couple of interesting lines.    Give him a chance - but don't let his voice overwhelm the music for you.   As decnt as the words - his voice is nothing to boast about !!!

Dear Anahid

It is very Challening indeed - just a few notes.

1- Because there are a couple of references to the bible - and because of the very first line; standing on the water casting your bread...  many people have wrongfuly assumed Jesus is the Jokerman - and that is not true.  

2- Bob Dylan, is another capitalist with a socialist heart - meaning he likes and lives the leisure life of a capitalist - but enjoys it less as long as there are poor, hungry and oppressed in the world.   He is a sophisticated individual with an interesting religious background (Jewish converted Christian, converted Spiritualist,...) - I am pretty sure "Jokerman" is a reference to a specific person - a man who constantly refrained to jokes as the first retrieve.    The video to the song suggested it was Ronald Reagan - but I do not think so.

3- Most importantly - I am not sure Bob Dylan had a very interesting point behind every line - like we are used to seeing in Persian Poetry.   Upon beeing asked about some of the meanings - Dylan explained he did not like to translate his poetry  - and wanted people to form their own opinions!

Good luck  - and thanx for opening this thread. 

Dear strap, thanks, you know so much about Dylan 's song

Dear strap, you have so much knowledge about Dylan's songs.  If I start translating his songs and have questions,  it would be great to be able to get help from you.  My contact button is missing and JJ is having someone help me with this.  Once it starts working, please send me an e-mail and let me know if I can get help from you to translate Dylan.  If you will not have time for this, I am still grateful for your input so far and in that case I have to google endlessly to find out meaning behind some of Dylan's phrases.

Queen Mary

Let me say first that i don't speak or read Farsi, I just thought you'd be interested in the cultural reference to ribbons and bows.

Queen Mary would be even more problematic, as it almost certainly refers to a reall woman that Dylan knew at the time. However a straight translation, in any language, would be confused with cultural references within that language.  For instance if the song were translated into French, the queen mary line would instantly be confused with Marie Antionette.

Some people believe that Dylan uses Queen Mary as a more mature woman, an amorphic female figure to contrast with the Baby he mentions. How you would work that into your translation I don't know.

No additional comment to strapme just saving comment by replying

Dear Strapme_65, I already made my comment thanking you.  But now I just used reply button to make sure your comment does not get deleted in future.  You know "Mar gazeedeh az reesman siah va sefid mitarsad".

Thanks strapme_65, for note about bows

To strapme_65; Thanks for explaining meaning of "ribbons and bows are fallen from her curls".  Now that you have been so nice and explained this, could you elaborate on part of the poem that starts with "Quenn Mary"?  What is a suitable translation for "Queen Mary"?

ribbons and bows

with regards to your dilema of translating "bows" perhaps a note on the context of that line. In the USA and UK "ribbons and bows" would only be worn by a young or immature girl. Dylan is refering to some one who is seemingly immature but who is in fact masking her maturity but he sees through the mask and her "ribbons and bows are fallen from her curls"

del

del

سلام از من است

شعرتان را خواندم  وزیبا است. اگر شعر خرسندی درست یادم باشد , شما حق مطلب را ادا کرده اید. خیلی ممنون که لینک شعر زیبای خود را اینجا گذاشتید.

با سلام

با سلام

من هم مثل شما خواستم شعر "پس حقوق بشر کجاست" از هادی خرسندی را به انگلیسی‌ ترجمه کنم. آنگاه که خواستم از کلمات ایشان استفاده کنم با مشکل بسیار جدی ربرو شدم. نهایتا تصمیم گرفتم در اون فضایی فکری مطلبی بنویسم که نتیجه آن شعری است که مشاهده میفرمائید. لطفا به لینک زیر مراجعه کنید. 

Abou Ghraib in Iran

دوست گرامی شراب سرخ

دوست گرامی شراب سرخ , دلیلی که من از باب دیلن خوشم می آید , این است که او اولأ که شاعر خوبی هست و مخصوصأ شعر های او خیلی سیاسی و انقلابی است.

یک نمونه آن همان شعری است که « انور» پیشنهاد کرد که من ترجمه بکنم. بعضی جملات آن شعر می گوید :

نویسندگان ومنتقدین , زود نتیجه گیری نکنید..اوضاع در حال تغیر است...کسی که اکنون بازنده است, در آینده برنده خواهد بود...   شعر در ضمن به مادران و پدران می گوید که اوضاع دارد تغییر

می کند و به نمایندگان مجلس می گوید که نبردی بیرون در جریان است که به زودی دنیایتان را عوض خواهد کرد.

به نظر من جملات بالا برای وضع حالای ایران خیلی درست است.

del

del

...

افشین خان،سر شما سلامت ، ما نه از آنیم که با خوشی‌ دیگران ناخوش شویم،کنجکاو شدیم،پرسیدیم،جواب گرفتیم وگرنه ما (خلق شمیرانات!) را چه به علم غنا!

سر عشق و عاشقی سبز و گرم باشد که در بطن ما جز خیر خواهی‌ چیز دیگری نیست !

اندک شرابی از سر شب باقی‌ مانده،لطف کنید و بنشینید،در خدمت باشیم.

شب خوش

del

del

...

نخواستیم محفل باب پرستان دیلان را خراب کنیم ولی‌ بنده هیچ گونه شباهت فرهنگی‌ یا رابطه خاصی‌ بین موسیقی این آقا و ما نمیبینم !

خواهشمندیم،لطف بفرمائید و ما را راهنمائی کنید، دلمان می‌خواهد چند وقتی‌ به کودکی خود و دیگر اعلمان دهر شاد باشیم.

مفتخریم .

Thanks Afshin. masoudA, jokerman looks challenging

Dear Afhsin, thanks for telling me about Desire album.  My collection of his works are not as good as yours but I do have some of his CDs, not all. Thanks for your translation, let me think about translating aches to "dard Mikeshad" rathr than "arezoo mikonad". 

masoudA, jokerman does look challenging to translate.  I think I have just found something to keep me busy for weeks if not months.  Problem is that it will be hard to find the time to translate.  Does anyone know if Dylan's works have been translated to Farsi? If yes, can anyone post a sample translation?  Dylan is such a great artist and many of his most famous songs have been around for decades so I would think that there migh be translations of some of his songs to Farsi.

Vojdan !

Keeping one step ahead of the persecutor within.

Dylan reffering to criminals who are always one step ahead of their concience !! 

del

del

Nice Translation - to the point

Me too I am big on Dylan.   This one should be quiet challenging to translate.     He recites his own lyrics and some of them are in fact quiet complicated to comprehend - at least for me. 

JOKERMAN

Standing on the water, casting your bread
While the eyes of the idol with the iron head are glowing
Distant ships sailing into the mist
You were born with a snake in both of your fists while a hurricane was blowing
Freedom just around the corner for you
But with truth so far off, what good will it do.

Jokerman dance to the nightingale tune
Bird fly high by the light of the moon
Oh, oh, oh, Jokerman.

So swiftly the sun sets in the sky
You rise up and say goodbye to no one
Fools rush in where angels fear to tread
Both of their futures, so full of dread, you don't show one
Shedding off one more layer of skin
Keeping one step ahead of the persecutor within.

You're a man of the mountain, you can walk on the clouds
Manipulator of crowds, you're a dream twister
You're going to Sodom and Gomorrah
But what do you care ? Ain't nobody there would want marry your sister
Friend to the martyr, a friend to the woman of shame
You look into the fiery furnace, see the rich man without any name.

Jokerman dance to the nightingale tune
Bird fly high by the light of the moon
Oh, oh, oh, Jokerman.

Well, the Book of Leviticus and Deuteronomy
The law of the jungle and the sea are your only teachers
In the smoke of the twilight on a milk-white steed
Michelangeo indeed could've carved out your features
Resting in the fields, far from the turbulent space
Half asleep near the stars with a small dog licking your face.

Jokerman dance to the nightingale tune
Bird fly high by the light of the moon
Oh, oh, oh, Jokerman.

Well, the rifleman's stalking the sick and the lame
Preacherman seeks the same, who'll get there first is uncertain
Nightsticks and water cannons, tear gas, padlocks
Molotow cocktails and rocks behind every curtain
False-hearted judges dying in the webs that they spin
Only a matter of time 'til the night comes stepping in.

Jokerman dance to the nightingale tune
Bird fly high by the light of the moon
Oh, oh, oh, Jokerman.

It's a shadowy world, skies are slippery gray
A woman just gave birth to a prince today and dressed him in scarlet
He'll put the priest in his pocket, put the blade to the heat
Take the motherless children off the street
And place them at the feet of a harlot
Oh, Jokerman, you know what he wants
Oh, Jokerman, you don't show any response.

Jokerman dance to the nightingale tune
Bird fly high by the light of the moon
Oh, oh, oh, Jokerman.

del

del

I like that Dylan song too

Afshin, you are right about Dylan losing a lot in translation but his songs are so great that even after losing a lot, they will still be good.  Also if he thinks that everyone should get their own interpretations of his works, then that means that I will have more freedom in translation.  Time permitting, I will try to translate some of his songs like the one suggested by Anvar.  Song mentioned by you is one of my favorite Dylan songs.