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Fesenjoon

thanks for that touchingly sincere answer. and sorry i almost missed out on responding. but better late than never, as they say. and i think 'they' may be right :)

you don't need me to explain anything, of that i am aware. you have this fire inside, and it must hurt. i can only try and imagine.

but let me emphasise something that i think you are aware of: those 'basic human rights' that in your view come before the national interest, they don't come from iran. they are good for iran. even essential. most iranians are aware of this, but they have not as yet been able to internalise them.

anyhow, enough said on this issue. i learned a lot from this short exchange. thanks fesenjoon, and regardless of all the possible arguments we have ahead of us, i think we will be cool! :) 

It is not "Iran" interfering in Iraq's internal affairs.

It is the fascist islamist regime trying to save their sorry asses, because they have lost credibility at home.

Those who argue that it is somehow in Iran's "national interest" to support a bunch of murdering islamist terrorist gangs across middle east, must remember that this kind of reckless behaviour is only designed to somehow protect the islamist regime from "foreign invasion". On the other hand, this kind of provocative behaviour can lead to possible military attack on Iran. The real victims would not be those of us sitting in the west cheering this kind of behaviour by the islamist regime, but the Iranian people, back home.  

"Personal business must yield to collective interest."

Iran

Iran should do more than assist Shia minorities.Many of the neighboring lands including: Azarbyjan republic and Afghanistan are stolen Iranian territory. Iran has every right to incorporate them into her territory. 

Just because Russia and Britain broke them off does not make it right. It is the duty of any Iranian government to recover them. Dictatorship or not; Islamic or not. Now the Islamist may use Shia as a pretext. Fine with me. 

The West is agitating separatists around Iran. Therefore Iran should pay it back in kind. Get loyal Iranians in neighbor "countries" to want to rejoin with Iran. That will take the wind out of the "Savalan" kind.

There are those with evil plans against Iran. The best defense is a good offense.

VPK

I agree with IMF & VPK

Iran should have influence not only in Iraq but in other neighbouring countries as well. Our border in the north is as important as the south and the west. Look what Russian did to Iran on the Caspian sea. What Iran should also do is to assist shia minorities in Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, as well as Kuwait. By doing that Iran will have full influence in the Persian Gulf region. Having said that, I don't want you get the impression that I am pro IRI.

Niloufar

I see your point and perspective.

But most of us base our views based on our personal experiences. 

You know Niloufar, Iranian.com is cool. because one can remain anonymous and write things otherwise impossible.

When I was 11 years old, I was sentenced to 20 lashes by the revolutionary court of the islamic Republic. I dont wish to go into the details of why, but I want you to know that I'm not making this up. Niloufar, do you undersdtand what it means to be 11 and experience this? (though mine was performed indoors, inside a prison cell). Hard to believe it really happened, isnt it! :-)

I hope you understand why I just cant support such a diabolical regime. A regime based on a religion of barbarism.

National interests dont have any meaning when the fundamental rights of the people doesnt exist. Without the people, security has no meaning. Security for whom?

You may be right, Niloufar. Maybe a sound secure economy is the prerequisite to justice. But I tend to think that basic human rights comes before national interest. What good is a secure system with a sound economy when women are legally recognized as half a man (being a "Za'ifeh"). I dont know about you Niloufar, but my blood boils even hearing such words. I owe everything I am to the women in my life. The need for supporting IRI's national interest isnt something that comes to my mind when hearing that "women are mentally retarded".  

When I hear that some government mullah instructs women to give more sex to their husbands in return for their husbands cheating on them (!!), the stench of insult becomes so suffocating to me that I just want to hang every mullah from their balls, and set their beards on fire to cleanse the Earth. Then perhaps I'll shove sanctions and security up their asses.

I apologize if I was (am) disturbing and devoid of mannerism. But I have seen so much injustice from IRI, to myself, and to women and minorities, that I will be ashamed to even call myself Iranian for the next hundred years.

Fesenjoon

You bring up many points. I tried here to reply to a few

Regarding government: We must agree to disagree here. The people in government as a tiny portion of population. In a dictatorship they never represent the people. Not in Iran for sure.

Regarding anti-American: I have to disagree with you. America is not a friend of Iranian people. They are at best a fickle potential ally. I do not see any reason to equate anti-Americanism with being pro IRI. Just like being anti-MKO does not make me pro IRI. 

Regarding the educated: I am with you. The intellectuals in 1979 were mostly morons. They are gone now mostly hiding in the West. There is a different generation. Please do not blame sins of parents on children.

Regarding overthrow: Shah did not fight back; that is why he lost. He was asking US for support. Jimmy Carter basically told him to not react. Carter wanted the Shah to fall. Shah was not strong enough to tell JC where to stick it. Therefore he fell. Khamenei is willing to kill plenty of people. He has his basiji and arab goons. The situation is very different. 

Regarding how long IRI will be. Man elm gheib nadarm. I don't know and neither do you. 

NP

I am done arguing about the difference of government and nation. We have our positions and must agree to disagree; right.

As for rigtht vs left. I know there are some Iranians who have "given up" on the Iranian nation. They are so bitter they now attack the people not IRI. The poeple most of whom were not even born in 79. That is what I mean by "right".

Now to your point. IMHO the hikers are totally in the wrong. They were asking for it and got it. This has nothing to do with IRI. No nation will let a bunch of potential spies wonder around its border. Specially one like the Iraqi border. 

The hiking or rock climbing is a pile of BS. If they want to rock climb there are plenty places in the USA. Same for hiking. They were tempting fate. Why go hiking on the Iran and Iraq border. They wanted to create trouble and they did. The smart thing for IRI is to question them. Then give them a big fine and deport them to Turkey or UAE. That way they will avoid trouble.

Now is IRI going to do this or will they take the bait.

VPK

VPK

Ok VPK. wahever. Here you go again on your own... I was not insulting myself. That is what you implied. If you disagree with it, that is one thing, Don't create other issues out of it.

Mash Ghanbar

I did not call you stupid. Now are you going to insult yourself then g et mad at me? This is a new one. 

vpk

oh you have such a sweet way with words :)

if only i felt strong enough to rescue anything! am keen to hear fesenjoon's response. don't know why you call him extreme right, but i guess i will find out if you are right.

in the meantime, get a load of this leak:

US hikers in Iran were 'forewarned'

excerpt:

"But the really interesting comment comes at the end of the document, under the heading "S2 assessment":

The lack of co-ordination on the part of these hikers, particularly
after being forewarned, indicates an intent to agitate and create
publicity regarding international policies on Iran.

It would appear that the military not only knew of the hikers'
presence in the region, but warned them in advance that they were
inviting trouble.

Furthermore, it seems the military themselves concluded the hikers
were there with the express purpose of creating publicity ... not rock
climbing or hiking."

VPK

"A nation is by definition not the same as its government."

But it is made from the same bricks that make the nation. Unless of course u think mashaei and Larijani brothers and Colonel Firouzabadi et al are foreigners.

"Were you sleep when thousands of Iranians protested for freedom."

Do u think those thousands of protesters are a true sample of 75 million? Or do u think that the millions that came out in response to the greens only came because of Saandis? (which would again prove my point)

"Have you been not watching the news?"

Do u base your conclusions on what u read and see in the news? The main priority of the media is to manipulate public perception.

"Who do you think is filling the Evin jail?"

The same people that have been filling it for the past 35 years. Only now, suddenly everyone thinks things have changed. Na azizam. We had thousands executed in the 80s, almost every year. Only there was no internet and youtube to document it minute by minute.

"So please keep some perspective. I know people are angry but no need to go too far."

Let's just agree to disagree. Cool? Obviously, my experience is very different from yours.

"Plus I say again: being anti-American does not make a person pro IRI. Why is this simple fact so hard to grasp for some?"

This point of yours is completely irrelevant. It really doesnt matter if someone can be both anti-American and anti-IRI. People who have mutual enemies are for all practical purposes friends. Example: What do IRI and Venezuela have in common to make them such cordial bed buddies? Language? Culture? History? Music? The only thing they have in common is keeneh for America. That's all that matters. By being so vehemently anti-American, one is automatically carrying out the dirty schemes of the mullahs, for free. 

"The reformers in Iran are not allowed to speak against VF under the penalty of death. The same way under Shah people were afraid to show their real anger."

Ah, but they did overthrow the Shah didnt they! Nowadays, save for those several thousands of yours, people are basically taking it in the @ss, with salaam o salavaat.

How about many others like myself? Plus many others not as vocal as I. There are many of us who are sick and tired of VF."

Yes, but my point is that, there arent enough of you. You think there are (based on pictures like this). But there actually arent.

"I have heard this right wing Calvinist stuff in the USA. "People deserve the government they get". It is called "blame the victim". A very favorite tactic of the Republicans. They also do it to blame rape victims: "They were asking for it"."

Correct, only, the rape victim here happens to be the rapist as well. They are one and the same. Or, alternatively, you could say that the rapist is raping his own daughters and sons.

"Maybe it is our fault because we exist. Maybe if we all died that would suite the right wing point of view."

It is our (their) fault for turning this into this. I was there, physically, in person, when the educated idiots of the koocheh gathered around to watch the face of Khomeini on the Moon with Binoculars, in 79.

"It is not easy to overthrow a government when it has all the guns and will use them."

I dont buy that. They overthrew the Shah and his Savak. I dont see people distributing pamphlets under curfew today. Everyone's trying to either work with the system, or get a visa to somewhere. 

"Iran has had many revolutions it will have yet one more."

Mark my words, my friend. Mark them: This regime will outlive both you and me. And the reason is simple: People dont want real change. They just want adjustments. If the Rahbar tomorrow comes and orders Mousavi to replace Ahmadinejad, all the greens will instantly disappear, and things will return back to the same way they've been for the past 35 years. You can only have change when Church and State separate, and that's not going to happen any time soon. Think not? Then good luck!

VPK

I have no idea what You think? Are you calling me stupid? So classy of you there.

You have articulated your points so many million times in here, Frankly one has to be a real chump not to get them. Believe me. Everyone knows where you stand by now.

NP & Fesenjoon

Glad you both agree on the wrong point of IRI being same as Iran. It is interesting how far right and far left meet.

One is bubbling with anger ready to choke Iranians. The other trying to rescue a failed revolution.

Fesenjoon

You can say  the more I think about it over the years, the more Ive come to conclude that it actually is. They are one and the same. Unfortunately. Unfortunately.

But you are not right. A nation is by definition not the same as its government. Were you sleep when thousands of Iranians protested for freedom. Have you been not watching the news. Who do you think is filling the Evin jail? It is not IRI supporters. So please keep some perspective. I know people are angry but no need to go too far. Plus I say again: being anti-American does not make a person pro IRI. Why is this simple fact so hard to grasp for some?

The reformers in Iran are not allowed to speak against VF under the penalty of death. The same way under Shah people were afraid to show their real anger. As for the names:

• IMF is not even Iranian. He is a South Lebanese so he don't count.
• NP is one individual with leftist ideology. I let her speak for herself.
• Parthianshot has some valid points but too much hate. I have not heard him defend IRI; maybe I missed it.

How about many others like myself. Plus many others not as vocal as I. There are many of us who are sick and tired of VF, In addition America hating does not mean loving VF. I know many who blame America specially Carter for IRI. I hardly call them VF supporter. There are many shades in Iranian politics. A one dimensional "pro West or pro VF" axis is oversimplified and does not describe.

So I actually blame Iranians for keeping IRI in power.

I have heard this right wing Calvinist stuff in the USA. "People deserve the government they get". It is called "blame the victim". A very favorite tactic of the Republicans. They also do it to blame rape victims: "They were asking for it". Maybe it is our fault because we exist.

Maybe if we all died that would suite the right wing point of view.

Regarding supporting VF they did long ago. Before people knew any better. When you had Britain and BBC filling people's ears with free Khomeini lies.  This is right wing self supremacist talking point. It is not easy to overthrow a government when it has all the guns and will use them.Iran has had many revolutions it will have yet one more.

Mash Ghanbar

You have no idea what I think so please keep to what you know. The "waters" are Arvand Rood. It is not some huge ocean and not international waters. That is a relatively small river split between Iran and Iraq. No other nation has a claim to it or business on it. 

If they want to be there; then need permission. Occupation don't count. The British created the problem now they want to stabilize it. Why don't they pack up and go home. It will stabilize by itself.

fesenjoon

that's quite a response you wrote to vpk. hopefully, you will also come to realise that not only is iran the same as iri (at least for the time being), there are national interest issues that are above the level of the regime. these include territorial integrity, security and economic development. undermine any of these three and you may set the potential for political reform back by decades. if you want iran to change realistically, you have got to support her economic development and her security, not just her territory. most people here only think 'territory' and nothing else. they don't realise that security coupled with economic development are essential for internally driven, popular political reform. you think people like me support the regime. i believe i am their most dangerous opponent. and i believe those who spend their time spreading 'hate' about iri in the international arena are doing no good for iran. we should instead ensure that iran's security is not threatened, and that there are no sanctions impeding economic development in iran. in tandem we can highlight human rights violations in iran. but there is no need for this to be any different than for the case of other countries. making a pariah out of iran is simply counterproductive for iran's development. but it does tremendously help america's military industrial complex.

Mash Ghanbar

U know what my opinion on the root of all of Iran's problems (if u go all the way deep) is?

It's this freakish mutation of a religion called Islam that we have.

It's so frikin twisted that we cant even admit it's wrong. And it's the main cause of our mess (politics, economy, everything). Islam isnt really a religion. It's a political ideology.

Take Khomeini e.g. and what he said: "Those who say Islam is not about war and bloodshed, have not understood Islam".

Are u f*ckin kidding me? The man himself is saying it out loud. And yet people revere this illiterate man as a demi-God, and go around talking about "peace in Islam".

VPK

"IRI is not the same as Iran"

The more I think about it over the years, the more Ive come to conclude that it actually is. They are one and the same. Unfortunately. Unfortunately.

It's the people that have put these moron akhondists into power. Just like the people that are trying to get Tea baggers into the House and Senate here. You cant exactly separate the two. The people of Iran arent willing to separate church from state. How many reformers do u know that talk about the failure of Velayat Faqih as a model? How many reformers do u know that are talking about a new "nezaam" as a possible solution? Sometimes I even think that despite rigging the elections, Ahmadinejad actually did win the majority vote. Maybe not by 69%, but he did win. Most of us here are from higher middleclass Iranian families. And so we tend to think that most of Iran is like north Tehran (or the big cities). But it's not. The majority of Iranians live shitty lives and easily buy the crap that Sedaa Sima tells them about external threats, and politics, and history. Look at how many America-haters we have on this website. The NPs, the SPs, the ParthianShots, the IMFs...and these guys are supposedly Iran's western educated! So what do u expect of the old couple that live in Varamain or Garmsar or Saaveh? They obviously despise the rich and wealthy of Tehran, and identify them with the flashy west, while feeling sympathy with scruffy Basijis and Ahmadinejad's plain jacket. Theyre not happy of course with the status, buy theyd rather stay with the current system, than call for an upheaval of the regime in favor of a western democracy.

So I actually blame Iranians for keeping IRI in power. If they really wanted, people wouldnt tolerate such a shitty system that boasts being a global role model, and is ranked 168th on the World Corruption index. They would hold their reps and officials accountable. They wouldnt sit and let Ahmaghinejad spew out the most freakish lies into their face, and get away with it. But they do. The few that try and fail (like Ebadi, Sotoodeh, etc), fail because of the apathy of the rest. Most people simply prefer to live with this system. And for their hardships? They just want the easy way out: Forget civic responsibilityy. Let's blame it on someone else: the USA, zionism, UK, Bahais, microbes,......somebody. Anybody.

The Leaked War Documents

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The Leaked War Documents can be found here: 

//www.LeakedIraq.com

***** 

*****

The Leaked War Documents can be found here: 

//www.LeakedIraq.com

***** 

***** 

*****

The Leaked War Documents can be found here: 

//www.LeakedIraq.com 

*****

The Leaked War Documents can be found here: 

//www.LeakedIraq.com

***** 

*****

The Leaked War Documents can be found here: 

//www.LeakedIraq.com 

VPK and Fesenjoon

Awsome debate there Gents? mind if i join ?:)

VPK

You are getting it wrong on the British sailors. What they meant was they had the right, the legal right to be in "international waters" just like anyother nations. Now , i know you soo soo soo soo soo Absolutely, Posolutely (new term) hate their guts, and if it were up to you, you would have sent them over to some african tribe to burn the alive, But the iranians have a habit of creating confusion when it comes to working out border issues.

What they are doing in iraq is partially contributing to the instability and delay in bringing about the peace. That is why there is chaos and the flames of insurgency and rebellion are fanned because the marching orders are coming from an external source.

Iran's security problems, the big ones and the ones that deserve real attention are rooted in many other places than in iraq and they should not have to supply the opposition forces under the guise of gaining or projecting influence. Franlkly that to me is a foreign notion. There is no such thing as it being ok for some nations to "project influence" over others. There are all kinds of International and regional Trades and cooperation pacts that are respected and signed among nations, But to projecy any political influence is to lay the foundations of a hegemonic government, the beginning of corruption and power grab.

Fesenjoon

I never thought your statements were directed at me. I am just having a discussion. Believe me I am not defensive nor insulted. I know who is on side of IRI. It don't take much to figure out :-)

Regarding Qum: they make wonderful silk rugs. Get rid of Mullahs and bring me rug !!

VPK

btw,

Dude, I'm not judging you. I never made any assumptions about what your position is. Dont be so defensive. Be cool, man. Most of my comments (if not all) are directed towards the die-hard IRI users here who are runing around amok. They have the freedom to go around pasting posters of Khamenei in their mosques here, and then have the nerve to come around here saying shit like "I hate this country. Theyre all idiots. It's a cesspool of degenerates..." yada yada yada. Hate it here? hate this country? Move to Qom.

Fesenjoon

• I agree that influence and arming parties are different. Influence may be for good; arming generally  is not.
• IRI is not the same as Iran. Please do not blame IRI actions on Iran.
• Both USA and IRI are hypocritical. The difference is that we both hate the IRI but not the USA. 

The short is that international politics is a vile game. USA is arming parties in Iran while IRI is arming them in Iraq. It makes me sick to see either one in action.

VPK

"Influence" and arming political parties in Iraq with bombs and missiles are 2 different things. Agree or not?

Also, I think the real reason for Bush's war wasnt Saddam, but to stock-up shitloads of money and profit for Halliburton and Bush senior's contractor buddies. (I liked Matt Damon's Green Zone btw). So no, I dont agree to the US being in Iraq either (even though the removal of Saddam turned out immensely beneficial for Iran).

The difference is, Iran is hypocritical about it. They cry foul for America's military presence in Iraq, but turn around and do the same exact thing. At least the neocons are roo-raast.  

Fesenjoon

You say: 

Being invaded by Iraq in 1982 is no excuse for Iran's Sepaah Pasdaran to fund and arm opposition Iraqi political parties in 2010, giving them missiles to shoot down Americans.

Agreed that is fine. However do you think US has any business flying over Iraq. By your own argument Iraq is a "Sovereign" nation. What the heck is USA doing flying planes over it?

FYI: I am not anti USA. I just like to know your position. I will be happy to provide you with my own reply to the above question.

Fesenjoon

I do not generally support preemptive strikes. However that is not the only choice. Many nations have influence in other nations. It is natural for Iran (not IRI) to have influence in the region. It does not even have to be bad. It may be very good.

In addition not doing so means unilateral disarmament. I do not approve of weapons or war. However it would be foolish of a nation to just disarm. Specially one with enemies nearby.

In case of Iran the biggest threat to it is from IRI. They are making Iran a target. That is why I agree that with Islamic Republic Iran does not benefit from its influence. Instead becomes a target. 

Once Islamic Republic goes I would reconsider. Maybe Iran should have influence. In fact I like to see Iran reassert its sovereignty over lands stolen by Russia. Why not? It is Iranian land and we have a right to it. 

VPK

"Wouldn't she have security interests to prevent this happening again?"

Yes, it's called the preemptive doctrine, and it's the policy of Rove and Palin. Do u support it? Or do u only support it if it's for Iran?

Being invaded by Iraq in 1982 is no excuse for Iran's Sepaah Pasdaran to fund and arm opposition Iraqi political parties in 2010, giving them missiles to shoot down Americans.

It has everything to do with the Akhonds. They rule Iran now. Whenever a secular democratic state comes to power, we'll discuss Iran's interests then.

Fesenjoon

How about if Iran had a different government say a democratic republic.Would it then have legitimate interests in Iraq.

Why does Britain get to go half the way across the world and occupy Iraq. But Iran does not have a right to influence Iraq. 

What does this have to do with Akhoonds. All nations want to project influence. Iran was attacked by Iraq. Wouldn't she have security interests to prevent this happening again.

This is what I mean by letting hated of IRI get in our way. I oppose IRI but I do not oppose Iranian interests. 

Why should Iran roll over and give up her interests. 

Iran doesnt have the right to do shit in Iraq

Hey IMF,

IRAQ IS A SOVEREIGN NATION. Iran has no fu***ing right meddling in its affairs.

Iran should pack its shit, get out of Iraq, and manage its own affairs.

The "fascists" are the Akhond child rapists, btw.

8-)

The Eastern

part of Iraq hold Ctesiphon: the capital of Sassanids. Including Tagh Khosrow.  By any reasonable analysis it *belongs* to Iran and should be a part of her. Of course Iran has interests in Iraq. 

We should not allow our hated of IRI cloud our judgement. Iran as a nation has legitimate interests in Iraq. No Iranian government will 

Britain on the other hand has no business being out there. I was laughing when I read the "indignation" by English when their sailors got arrested. They complained that they were in "legal" water. How could Britain be in legal waters thousands of miles away from thier miserable little island anyway. The only nations with a right to Arvand Rood are Iran and Iraq. So lets drop this charade of legal mumbo jumbo. Iran has for over three thousand years been been involved in that area. It will remain so.

If anyone does not like it I have two words: tough s***t.