Olmert to Barak: You're negating achievements of Gaza op
haaretz
08-Mar-2009 (6 comments)

An argument broke out...between…Olmert and  Barak...Olmert:] "I have never agreed to a deal with Hamas," adding that anyone who offers Hamas a deal, like Barak did, is sabotaging the gains achieved during Israel's recent offensive...Barak retorted that "the operation [Cast Lead] was a success, and...we could have found ourselves in a different situation now if we had been willing to discuss an agreement."

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khaleh mosheh

I had a point to make

by khaleh mosheh on

Relating to this thread- and made it with with due care and respect to you and the website.

If you dislike it please feel free to flag as inappropriate for moderation.

Best wishes

 


rosie is roxy is roshan

Khaleh, don't show the video to me. Send it to Al Jazeera.

by rosie is roxy is roshan on

 on They wrote the article on the ordinary Israeli soldiers' disgust with Operation Cast Lead and their despair at the prospect of having to kill again FOR NOTHING I merely posted it as a feed and make reference to it here.

aljazeera.com.

ps I read them every day as a counterbalance to haaretz. and vice versa.


khaleh mosheh

Enjoying your work

by khaleh mosheh on

I wish I had a job that I could come to love. 

 

 


rosie is roxy is roshan

Yes, I think soldiers get sick of war, especially when they

by rosie is roxy is roshan on

feel it is pointless. Two factors support my point of view: The ordinary soldiers are by no means all hardline Zionists number one; as you know military service is obligatory and (paradoxically unless you are one of the ultra-Orthodox settlers who make so much trouble at the border and are loathed for it by Israeli liberals), it is virtually impossible to get conscientious objector status in Israel. those who would be conscientious objectors just get thrown in jail over and over again. So they choose to serve, reluctantly.The other factor is that Al Jazeera has no vested interest that I can see in either reporting or exaggerating that story. So now more soldiers would serve reluctantly, and reluctant soldiers do a poorer job than enthusiastic ones. 

And yes I think the prisoners have  to do with the process. It is true that this type of exchange has been done before,: MANY Palestian prisoners for very few Israeli ones and one could even argue that this is a tactic to make Hamas stronger to justify a new invasion by Israel, but that sounds far-fetched to me. Too byzantine. I think it is an offer by the hardliners for Hamas to accept as a prelude to peace talks with Israel, probably by proxy through Fatah, Syria and others, but an offer with a twist. If you accept it we remain top dog. Still it iremains a gambit.

Israel's preparing for a new incursion, which does seem to be the desire of their leaders and their large base, is patently insane. Obama cannot support it for numerous reasons Destroys his credibility in the eyes of the entire world, loses a part of his base, destroys any hope of cooperation with Iran on Afghanistan which he has to get his a-s out of as soon as possible (and I think he wants to but he is just clueless so far as to how) and he has already given money to rebuild Gaza and has pledged billions more. You don't rebuild something you intend to tear down. UK gave the green light to EU to pursue war crimes trials for Israeli leaders based on Kerry's report, this had to be a US green light by proxy, same with UK's announcing intentions to have diplomatic relations with Hazbolla (Hamas' cousin). Also Obama courts Syria so they can influence Hamas (and IRI), why would he bother to do this if he didn't want peace? Finally there is the Russian factor-supporting an invasion in Gaza would kill Us-Russian negotiations in five minutes, and Obama's principles (yes I think he has some). Clinton's public rhetoric toward Israel has been supportive (most, not ALL) but her (semi)-private conversations have been scathing.

So,for Israel to invade Gaza again without US support would be suicidal within the shifting geopolitical climate, Israel can't survive five minutes without complete US support. To be perfectly honest with you, I do believe there is a part of the "Israeli psyche" that IS suicidal but it is not the whole picture  I think when a regime and its supporters want war, overall they want to win. At this time they would lose bigtime in terms of the consequences. Part of their psyche denies this reality, part of their psyche wants this, and part of their psyche does not want to commit suicide. I think it is more complicated than you say it is.

PS You can't get more Zionist than Barak. Why would he stick his neck out and maybe lose his job (this altercation with Olmert got nasty..) if he didn't want peace now?


Ostaad

What the Zionists not eager to kill for nothing?!

by Ostaad on

Now that's news to me.

Rosie, you seem to be one hell of a confused poppy, girlfriend. Allow me to hazard a guess. You are trying to unravel the riddle of the Zionists' musical chairs, hence the confusion. In my opinion, things would be much clearer if you started from the viewpoint that Israel is content with the status quo and peace be damned.  The rest is just theatrics. Do you really think the "prisoners" and Shalit have anything to do with what's going on?! Come on, really.


rosie is roxy is roshan

Four crucial points:

by rosie is roxy is roshan on

The argument was not only about a difference of opinion on stategy. This is about Barak saying Israel actively supported the Cairo peace talks and Olmert saying they didn't. Second point Tipi Livni seems to have had an ambigupus stance swaying toward Olmert. One could only hope that this is an attempt to lure undecided votes for the coming election, since her own base really has no other choice but to vote for her, and that if a coalition government is formed, she will not be so stupid and heartless as to consent to refusing to negotiate with Hamas unless they meet the most extreme Israeli demands, which could lead to another incursion into Gaza. The third point is that Shalit is a major bone of contention here. His release was not part of the original Israeli demands and Olmert throwing him into the mix late in the day was highly criticized as sabotaging peace talks. (This would appear to be true since in another report, Hamas has just refused an Israeli offer to exchange Shalit for HALF of he over 400 Hamas political prisoners they hold ,and for Hamas to CHOOSE which. So Hamas appears to be intransigent on the Shalit demand....)  Finally Al Jazeera recently reported that many Israeli soldiers are disgusted with the last Gaza incursion, saying it achieved NOTHING, and a new inccursion will also achieve nothing, and they do not want to go back there to kill for nothing again.