Armenian Moderator Ignatius Provokes Erdogan-Peres Meeting in Davos
Turkish Weekly
01-Feb-2009 (11 comments)

 (The) head of the Ankara-based Turkish think tank USAK told the JTW that it is quite strange to prefer a diaspora Armenian for such an elite gathering. "As all we know there is a strong anti-Turkish circle in Armenian Diaspora. They are against anything Turkish. Diaspora Armenians even try to prevent Turkey-Armenia rapprochement...and they have been trying to spoil that co-operation."...(He) further underlined that Ignatius is known for his anti-Turkish media comments. "He wrote against Turkey and Mr. Erdogan in Washington Post.."

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rosie is roxy is roshan

MM

by rosie is roxy is roshan on

When you talk about causalities among children, you should also include 8 years of emotional and psychological casualties among hundreds of thousands of Israeli children. They also had to endure 8000 or so rockets coming from Gaza.

I do bear it in mind. The impassioned way in which Peres talked about this was one of the reasons why I felt him to be sincere. He also mentioned several thousand deaths over the course of the years (not sure how many years he meant...)

Hamas was warned time and time again. not only by Israel, but by everyone else, that Israelis will not sit and take it for too long. Instead hamas leaders were taunting IDF to "come in and we will make gaza your graveyard". By now we know who's graveyard.

I don't doubt it. Could you provide a link to this?

Turkey is an,000 Israelis visit Turkey). It is natural that Peres will take that into account. Islamic and very influential country in the region. It is respected and valued as ally by all Israelis. Relationship between Israel & Turkey have been very beneficial to both countries. It is natural that Peres will take that into account.

I didn't say it wasn't. I just said you told me at the same time that I was wrong for construing Peres is being highly emotional about the Gaza situation on basis of my not knowing him, a polished politician; and being emotional about Turkey. I also pointed out that ithis kind of comment does not help to alter the perception that Israelis are callous, self-serving and ruthless. You have not deemed these comments of mine "worthy" of scrutiny but in actual fact that reply would be more important than the factual ones you offer, because they get to the "heart" of the matter.

In regards to Sabra & Shatila.

Yes, while these Palestinian camps were under IDF control, the perpetrators of the massacre (800 pals) was done by the Christian Phalanges in Lebanon. They were retaliating to avenge the murders
of Lebanese President Bashir Gemayel and 25 of his followers, killed
in a bomb attack earlier that week. Whom they suspected to have done by terrorist from those camps.

Please bare in mind that, in 1982, Lebanon was still in the mids of its civil war. many innocent civilian were killed by their own fellow country man.It is interesting that, when Arabs killed Pals on a wholesale level, no one says anything. But when they get killed by friend of Israelis, everyone is up in arms. 

I have no dispute with this. There is hypocrisy and lies and yes, callous, self-serving ruthlessness everywhere you look. It is alarming the whitewashing that goes on. But you have to understand that just because this is the case and even though we should point it out it doesn't mean we should sink to that level OR ALLOW US TO BE PERCEIVED THAT WAY (for whatever anti-Sem or other reasons there may be...) It doesn't mean we can go around saying, oh you know he wasn't upset about the children, it was about Turkey..no.

At the same time, Palestinian and other Islamic terror groups were hiding in those Palestinian camps and using them and launch pad to destabilize Lebanon.

This is the human shield argument which Peres voiced so passionately and is in general one of the strongest arguments for the Zionist "side". It is hotly denied by the other "side". But why would Hamas do this when they saw what happened in Lebanon and they know they're going to get clobbered anyway. Unless you would go so far as to say that they would WANT those kinds of retalliations on civilians as opposed to the ostensible purpose which would be to prevent attacks on THEM.

In fact Israel did launch an official investigation (Kahan Commission), after which all commanding officers were dismissed of their duties

This is a very partial reply to the S & S issue. Being a pacifist (yes I am) can you not understand that on that day in 1982 I just got sick of the whole thing. We had enough blood inflicted on us during the Reich (and before), it made me a pacifist, I do not want blood on our hands period. There has to be another way. OTHERWISE IT'S NOT WORTH IT. We become what we most hate and fear. It is a Faustian deal. We become what we most hate and fear. There can be no victory in that.

I lost interest long ago in who threw the first stone. I am only concerned with the present. I cannot offer immediate solutions but I can tell you this one isn't it. Not strategically in the long run, and not in terms of our soul.

Btw there is an abstruse and somewhat convoluted discussion going on on another thread which you were wise to stay way from if you saw the blog, but your name has been coming up a lot based on your use of Persian, i.e. are you of Iranian background. One says no, but he won't admit it, the other says he already admitted he wasn't. I thought you were. I myself would like to know and also to tell them if you don't mind. It is important to the whole situation here--majority "side" will not admit they are guilty of the same assuming, mischaracterizing, lumping people together, etc. that they accuse minority "side" of. I keep tryying to tell them, you probably don't think I do it enough but I will keep trying in my own way anyway.

If you want to see the blog I will give you the link but it is pretty stupid and irritating, you might not like to bother but still I would . just like to say, yes he is Iranian or no he is not, or yes his family is but he was raised in Israel (that part I know..)

Thx

Rosie.


rosie is roxy is roshan

Ostaad,

by rosie is roxy is roshan on

thx a million. I can see the point. It means it  is much safer and more strategic to do the walkout than to dismiss the ambassador. Th isway he gets to leave his options open, the can triumph domestically but still have wiggle room with EU, Nato, Israel itself, etc. A feed I recently posted interviewing a famous Turkish Kurdish author postulated something similar, that there is widespread suspicion among the Turkish Kurds of Erdogan's true motivations in supporting their cause. Obviously all I can do is take it all in.

//iranian.com/main/news/2009/02/01/interview-kurdish-author-muhsin-kizilkaya-kurdish-trt

The one thing that does strike me as odd is that in order for the blogger to be right in his assessment of the strategy, Erdogan would've had to bank on there being enough of a perceived slight to him to bring the situation to a head....perhaps he thought it really would be more of a DEBATE and then he could provoke it if need be. 

About the apology, I googled it after reading your post and yes, Turkish press says it was one but Peres' office says it wasn't. But Haaretz has the transcript of the phone call so you can judge for yourself. Don't know why the title is in question form. Also couldn't find any google hits for the mentioned press onference.

 //www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1060289.html

When I google for the feeds Turkish Weekly has often come up not only on this but all kinds of IRANIAN news. It is partly because they are so far ahead in the time zones, also because obviously being Turkish they have their own very unique perspective on what constitutes "newsworthy" news. It is also interesting that you just posted a good feed from them and me too--the one about the author. In any case 'l'll take you at your word that the two links you gave me are better and look into them. Turkish Weekly did not strike me as the most in-depth and sophisticated publication in the world...

Many thx again,
Roxane


Mehdi Mazloom

rosie

by Mehdi Mazloom on

I will reply to some of your main point to which I deem worthy.

When you talk about causalities among children, you should also include 8 years of emotional and psychological casualties among hundreds of thousands of Israeli children. They also had to endure 8000 or so rockets coming from Gaza.

Hamas was warned time and time again. not only by Israel, but by everyone else, that Israelis will not sit and take it for too long. Instead hamas leaders were taunting IDF to "come in and we will make gaza your graveyard". By now we know who's graveyard.

Turkey is an Islamic and very influential country in the region. It is respected and valued as ally by all Israelis. Relationship between Israel & Turkey have been very beneficial to both countries (every year more then 450,000 Israelis visit Turkey). It is natural that Peres will take that into account.

In regards to Sabra & Shatila.

Yes, while these Palestinian camps were under IDF control, the perpetrators of the massacre (800 pals) was done by the Christian Phalanges in Lebanon. They were retaliating to avenge the murders
of Lebanese President Bashir Gemayel and 25 of his followers, killed
in a bomb attack earlier that week. Whom they suspected to have done by terrorist from those camps.

Please bare in mind that, in 1982, Lebanon was still in the mids of its civil war. many innocent civilian were killed by their own fellow country man.It is interesting that, when Arabs killed Pals on a wholesale level, no one says anything. But when they get killed by friend of Israelis, everyone is up in arms. 

At the same time, Palestinian and other Islamic terror groups were hiding in those Palestinian camps and using them and launch pad to destabilize Lebanon.

In fact Israel did launch an official investigation (Kahan Commission), after which all commanding officers were dismissed of their duties, and Ariel Sharon was shunned out of public service for many years. 


Ostaad

rosie, I'll do my best.

by Ostaad on

Thank you for following up what's going on in the ME with sincere interest. The article is written by a blogger whose name is Mikhaeel Jalaali. He is arguing that Erdogan was under tremendous pressure from the Turkish public to sever his country's relationships, which run a gamut of military, economic and political interests, to show Turkey's disgust with what its ally, Israel, was doing in Gaza. To back up this point the author cites several interviews and announcements by Erdogan in which he had strongly denounced Israel's decision to enter Gaza and condemned IDF's atrocities there. The other contributing factor was Turkey had put huge politial capital in becoming the main arbiter between Syria and Israel and before that Pakistan and Israel. All those efforts had either stopped or were in danger of disappearing due to Israel's decision. The last but not least factor was Turkey's "rivalry" with Iran in securing a leadership position in the region.

Jalaali believes Turkey had to either do a Chavez-like act, that is recalling Turkey's ambassador from Israel and dismissing the Israeli ambassador from Turkey due to the public pressure, or do something like he did in Devos to release pressure aimed as his government and party with a huge reward during the next elections in Turkey. It seems Israel got the message and Peres, according to Israeli press, called Erdogan and "apologized" or something to that effect. Anyway they both Israel and Turkey seem to have buried the hatchet and no military contracts have been canceled (although Israeli tourists seem to have canceled their trip to Turkey for now). 

In short the author believes this show of outrage by Erdogan was an brilliant way to keep Turkey-Israeli relations on track, guarantee Erdogan elctoral advantage, divert public opinion pressure on his government, send a warning to Israel about the huge price it would pay be ignoring it's only real Moslem ally's positon in the ME.

The following are good publications that you may want to read to get good info about Tureky:

//www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/

//www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/home/

I hope I have been able to convey the gist of Mr. Jalaali's blog.

Good luck and thank you again for your kind remarks.

BTW, girlfriend, go easy on Mazloom, there must be a good reason he has chosen that name.


rosie is roxy is roshan

Ostaad, oh sh-t,

by rosie is roxy is roshan on

kheili motshakeram vali farsi khub nemitoonam bekhoonam. Iraani nistam va tamrin lazem daaram.

I really need to go back to it, it's been a few years and there's SO much more Persian posting than there used to be (not so much articles but I mean right on the threads, I think it's because now almost everyone has the font...). And I need to get a new dictionary, I lost my good one..sooooooooo....

could I PLEASE prevail upon you when you have time to provide a brief summary of the major points in the article. Doesn't matter when, it'll come up on my tracking immediately...Unlike my co-religionist (and friend???) here,t, Mr. Mazloom, you seem to appreciate my sincere efforts to understand and the foundation I'm trying to lay, spending so much time and effort to inform myself to try to be fair and as truthful as possible for  myself, my people, our website and our planet in this TERRIBLE crisis. That's why...you're..an ostaad...

Thx so much,
Roxane

PS I know, Nobel Prize...it's like...hallucinatory...


rosie is roxy is roshan

rosie, let me ask you. How

by rosie is roxy is roshan on

rosie, let me ask you. How long have you known this man. He is Israel's "last Mohican", one the founders of this country. I have known him for few decades. You could not be more off based with your observations as you were here. Peres is a very experience diplomat, known worldwide. A Noble Laureate. He knows the art of projecting one image on the international arena.

His torment was not as much about the Palestinians, rather about how not damage the long term relationship between Israel & Turkey. How to reply to erdogan w/o insulting the Muslim ally, and friend. That what he was tormented about.

My dear Mehdi, thank yo for the reply but you just contradicted yourself a couple times to start off. First of all you tell me I "could not be more off-base", when in fact by acknowledging what appears to me to be his sincerity (with which you seem to agree) I am probably in a--what---.001% of this website beyond the strong Zionist "clique" who recognizes it, so for the purposes of THIS website context (i.e. WHERE WE ARE) I'm far closer (to your persepctive than most..). So I got a hunch, a strong impression and it so what? There are all different kinds of knowledge, including affective and intuitive. Now, had I known that this man was a Nobel laureate, I would've la...well anyway. Point. Did you know that people told me he was accused in the assassination of Rabin and I spent quite some time reading and evaluating and I think..leave it...so it doesn't MATTER whether I'm an expert, I can do some legwork and come to some conclusions, and if I'm wrong, people can tell me that. At least I'm TRYING to get a Turkish persepctive, as well as being almost the only person still posting about the situation on the ground in Gaza...Moving along.

You as usual claim and try to be respectful but your preconceived jeering perspective on anyone who is a non-Zionist Jew (ESPECIALLY if they are not an Encyclopeia Brrittanica of facts and figures, which no one is obligated to be)  interferes with your hearing my statements ratonally and responding to them rationally, despite the meticulous syllogistic appearance of your arguments (which if I may vor someone better-informed than me is a greater "sin" than my own lapses due to admitted ignorance...). So here's a contradiction: you respectfully jeer at me for saying the man seemed tormented, because he's such a polished image-conscious political veteran, and then in the next sentence you EXPLAIN that his torment was due to relations with Turkye.  So what was it Mehdi, either he was distraught or not, but ya can't have it both ways.

Finally you seek to redeem him, to set the record straight, by asserting that in fact he was NOT distraught about the Pslestinian children (which I believed) and so on, but about Turkish diplomatic relations. Say what? First of all it's YOU who now undermine MY perception of him as a man who...wants to be good...by putting diplomatic relationships above mutilated humans which was EXACTLY Erddagon's allegation. And THAT contradiction leads to OTHER convolutioins in your argument, such as...how out of touch are you that you hope to CONVINCE anyone here (forget me, I'm FAR more sympathetic to your "side" than majority here..) with this type of admission, so...

those are my responses to your FIRST HALF OF THIS POST. Now, if you can AGREE that AT LEAST one or two of these SEVERAL contradictions I point out has SOME validity we can continue...if you can't, it's hopeless, this will go nowhere. Nowhere.

But if you CAN, do me a favor please...and please honor your promise to FIRST address the questoin of the flares at Sabra and Shatilla which I have been asking you to do for over two weeks now...click on my blue name here and then blogs, then Zionazis..and...

pls read the post on the "Improve i.c." blog because it MAY (or may not) help you to navegate the site better.  

Your reply on Zionazis will come up in my tracking, and then I'll read it and then get back here to our discussion here on this thread.

Your call,
Roxane

PS Your arguments are no worse than the ones saying the Ottomans were the Hare Krishna, they're not even as bad, but ya know what the problem is..I said it to you before...it's your "yidusher kopf", it's these THOUSANDS of years of universal literacy of our people, it's our LIVING tradition of textual exegesis directly from Talmud (Jerusalem as well as Bablonian..). YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO BETTER.

 

 


Mehdi Mazloom

rosie. Claifaying few points.

by Mehdi Mazloom on

you will have to forgive me for being a bit......... harsh on you. No malice intended. I will try to respond to some of your points made. maybe after that thing will be clearer.

you wrote:

I saw a termented and torn man who believed what he was saying (whether
being truthful to HIMSELF or not..).

rosie, let me ask you. How long have you known this man. He is Israel's "last Mohican", one the founders of this country. I have known him for few decades. You could not be more off based with your observations as you were here. Peres is a very experience diplomat, known worldwide. A Noble Laureate. He knows the art of projecting one image on the international arena.

His torment was not as much about the Palestinians, rather about how not damage the long term relationship between Israel & Turkey. How to reply to erdogan w/o insulting the Muslim ally, and friend. That what he was tormented about.

You interjected your own views, according to your NON-ISRAELI value system. Had you been an Israeli, you would have understood his pov much better.

Then you write:

I did wonder if Erdogan was right in saying he'd spoken only half the
time of Peres, because the whole thing seemed INTERMINABLE to me...and
that was a problem because I just didn't have the...stamina...to go
back and time it

You see the problem here. You are trying to comment, or otherwise come across an authoritative  on a subject to which yourself admit you have little knowledge of.

Here is your biggest shortcoming. You wrote:

I posted about the human rights violations, the retalliations, against Fatah after the ceasefire.

Rosie, the retaliation was against HAMAS not Fatah. These are two distinct groups of Palestinian, who don't get alone.

 
Unfortunately these type of miscued comments from you which I strongly believe create (hopefully the wrong) impression that your are goofy. which many poster tend to ignore your post. Who knows, that maybe the reason why you did not get replies from the Ha'aretz paper.

I trully command you for being compassionate lady, and you do want to express your opinions such that others will read and acknowledge. We all do. Nonetheless, you really have to make sure you get your stories right before you push the click "post"

 

 


Ostaad

There's more than meets the eye.

by Ostaad on

I think the Turkish Weekly article is nonsense. Countries do not act on the basis of who likes whom. Here is one of the most cogent articles that I have read, which gives an excellent analysis of the political reasons behind Rajab Erdogan's speech and behavior.

//www.fararu.com/vdciwuar.t1aur2bcct.html

I am very familiar with David Ignatius's work and I have great respect for him. But I think he, unknowingly, fell in a trap by being sloppy (Or maybe shekamesh gharoghoor mikard, because being late for dinner was ostensibly his excuse to limit Erdogan's time).

In the meantime I found Peres's excuses for Israel's war crimes merely pathetic. He had a bad hair day and sounded like an old hyena after a bad meal. The fact this war criminal in his own right has a Nobel peace prize is an outrage.


rosie is roxy is roshan

Mehdi I wrote about it..

by rosie is roxy is roshan on

//iranian.com/main/2009/jan/turkey-israel

here and elsewhere. I just don't see this "strong voice" (read, bellicose) of Peres in his speech. I saw a termented and torn man who believed what he was saying (whether being truthful to HIMSELF or not..) And people don't respond. I watched the whole damn thing following Zion's link and I did wonder if Erdogan was right in saying he'd spoken only half the time of Peres, because the whole thing seemed INTERMINABLE to me...and that was a problem because I just didn't have the...stamina...to go back and time it. I agree that given the tenseness of the debate it was wrong not to give Erdogan some time at the end and it was even a bad STRATEGIC move, look how it rallied people around Erdogan.

I don't UNDERSTAND why the pro-Israelis or whatever you want to call them DO things like this, make these strategic blunders that only serve to raise the hate factor against them in the world...INCLUDING this excessive excessive force. WHAT do they hope to accomplish by being marginalized and demonized and polarizing further an already dreadful situation. I just don't get it. Strategically, let alone from a humanitarian standpoint.

Quite frankly if you timed it and Erdogan did have equal time in the speech I think you should blog it. You know my views but I'm trying to be very fair. I post Haaretz regularly, you may not like them but at least they're an Israeli voice--yet no one supposedly on their "side" commends them. I posted about the human rights violations, the retalliations, against Fatah after the ceasefire. I try to be fair. I can't believe that on that Turkey Isreal link, people are babbling about nonsense like "Westoxification" (who the HELL uses that term anymore except a Seyyed or two?) and the peaceful contributions of the OTTOMANS!!??

It seems to me like the whole world's gone mad (agaijn....) Website included, it's starting to go mad, people are saying things I've never HEARD before.... How on earth could anyone expect Peres to be calm after all the allegations against him as the Greatest Satan (justified or not, you know my view on Gazes, that's not the point)..and yet he DIDN'T get mad..he got upset, disturbed...what the hell did people expect? If he'd been calm they would've attacked him for being false and calculated and unfeeling..or am I seeing something completely different on that video from what is there? I ask them, they don't answer..I get upset, it's so frustrating. This tears me to pieces, do you understand this?  IDO believe Israel's actions are depredatoins...but that's not the point..the point is..."our Turkish brothers, not Western, Middle Eastern"..what the hell is that, it's code for Muslim...this is jj's site, it's not....that...or am I seeing something different..mirages...sand in my eeys?

Regardless...sorry...dirty trick..an Armenian should not have been the moderator, nasty nasty. With all the countries in the world represented there...Armenia??!!

Anyway, I wrote you something on that improving i.c. blog and you should read the reply.

Roxane

 


Mehdi Mazloom

Erdogan

by Mehdi Mazloom on

To those of us who did watch the whole video clip, there are few points to be made.

1. There is no doubt, all participants on that forum in Davos were told in advance, the was a finite length of time allocated for the debate. Also, each had that many minutes available for them to present their pov.

1. PM Erdogan got the honer to be the first speaker.

2. He spoke the longest (some 20 minutes) w/o being interrupted.

3. In regard to President Peres getting emotional. It was perfectly understandable. It was HIS people, and his country which was affected by the subject matter - not Mr. Erdogan.

4. PM Erdogan was the ONLY panelist who was allowed rebuttal to S. Peres's comments.

5. It was PM erdogan who raised the temperature of the debate, with his emotional outburst, not Pres. Peres.

Despite that, I still think Igancious should have given another minute to Erdogan to finish his tirade before cutting him off. 


rosie is roxy is roshan

I didn't know he was ARMENIAN too..

by rosie is roxy is roshan on

as well as Zionist, bla bla bla..so I thought maybe you hadn't caught that part either. What a sucker punch...