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I know this kind of person. I grew up with many people

like Peres. When I said desperate I meant in despair, when I said hysterical I meant like he was ready to cry. When I said he sounded traumatized I meant traumatized by the killing of the children. It was a bad choice of words.  When I said torn I meant that he felt torn by his conscience about the violence. I cannot understand why people werre saying he had a "strong" voice as though he were rallying the troops. He sounded like he was ready to cry.

I know the affect of my people, their facial expressions, body language, tones of voice. He sounded like he was being honest.
What lies he may tell himself I can't say. But he sounded like a man in deep despair. Not like someone "rallying the troops." Unless he has studied acting with Lee Strassberg.

Yes I will get lynched for this. It does not condone the excessive force. The entire infrastructure of Lebanon that took thirty years to destroy and rebuild demolished in three days. Even if it did stop the Hezbollah rockets it was wrong and strategically bad in terms of demonizing Israel (and more unfortunately Jews) in the eyes of the world. It was BEYOND excessive, I never heard of anything like it before in terms of the swiftness. Is this someting to be proud of?

The Israelis say they accomplished their military goals in Lebanon by stopping the rockets but it only gave Iran more pretexts to threaten Israel. This situation is polarizing the entire world. Just look at this site. There was always a huge rift in ideologies but the so-called IRI apologists really DIDN'T apologize for IRI, they just wanted to downplay the human rights violations to protect Iran from military attack by the Neocons. So they barely mentioned the attrocities. I shared a lot of their politics but I always blasted the human rights violations in strongest terms possible and asked them why they barely mentioned them. They commited sins of omission IMHO but they did NOT really apologize for IRI, it was mostly silence that was the main problem.

NOW people are openly apologizing for IRI. And how do they do this? By saying thank God at least Iran is not Israel, IRI is a pussycat in comparison to Israel. Forget humanitarian, these were TERRIBLE strategic moves, this excessive force. What are the Israelis doing, are we supposed to become a human fortress.

I BELIEVE Peres is sincere  when he talks about the self-defense (I know people will jump down my throat for it too) but turning the other cheek can also be a strategy. You get the moral high ground and then the people who bomb you with their chintzy little crappy rockets that rarely reach their targets look very bad indeed. The Zionists DID take the land and I'm sorry but it is behooven unto them to take the moral high road DESPITE THE HELL WE ENDURED BECAUSE OF EUROPE EUROPE EUROPE.

And yes I do believe the US overfunds Israel for its own agenca but I am used to that kind of crap from the US since WWII. But what the hell is Israel getting out of this deal except living in a hell on earth with hands soiled by blood when we of all people...

I'm sorry but Israel should've responded to those suicide bombings in the buses with SCHOOLS with SWIMMING POOLS and free LUNCHES and BASKETBALL COURTS. For hearts and minds. Hearts and minds. They sure had enough money to do it with all that US aid.

This is SICK SICK SICK. Some people say Israel dictates US policy, not the other way around, I don't give a sh-t which way it goes, it makes no sense either way, when you lose your soul and plus become the poster child demon of the world to such point that crapola TURKEY can gain the moral high ground with all its persecutions..what have you WON? What have we won?

And those crazy settlements full of these psycho whacko ultra-Orthodox. My god, you talk about the modern state of Israel and the Arab "mentality". These people are medieval and some of them are INBRED too. You think I don't know them from New York? Talk about sick medieval ritual practices. What modernity? This modern state of Israel depends on a bunch of medievalists that have brats like rabbits just to compete with the Muslims to propogate some sick psycho wacko agenda of getting crappy territory that costs like how much to irrigate and for what?

SICK SICK SICK. THE WHOLE THING IS SO SICK and I don't care what the US thinks they're getting from it and whether the tail is wagging the dog or not, we are in an Auschwitz oven called ISRAEL and it is our morality and our freedom to be in the family of nations and our conscience that is being gassed this time. BY US.

SICK. We Jews are the canary in the mine of all humanity, somehow we wound up that way. We were the canary in WWII  because we were considered the scum of Europe and now everything we do we choke and die ain the mine and all we do is prove that humanity, the miners, are SICK and the whole modern world is TOXIC, but the world doesn't see it that way and the dead and mutilated children don't see it that way, they just see the JEWS as the demons, they don't look at themselves, they look at US..we were the canary in the mine in Auschwitz and we are still the canary in the mine of the heart of darkness of the human soul. We have to STOP the cycle.

We went through hell in Europe and now we are in hell in Israel. It is all SICK. 

End of rant. I'm not even gonna proof it. I'm so SICK of the whole    f-ing nightmare.

I KNOW PERES. HE IS MY ELDERS. HE IS SUFFERING. We have to take some hits, we have to bite the bullet, IT IS THE ONLY WAY OUT OF HELL.

On Palestinian aids

[the other completely irrelevant issue brought up to avoid confronting all the content of what Peres had to say:]
//www.danielpipes.org/article/2298

More...

... of the kind of person this Erdogan character is:
//www.andrewbostom.org/blog/2009/01/30/davos-...

to compare to civilized gentlemen:
//www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1233050...

with the ease that comes with being right.

Please don't feel compelled to sit it out! i am very

interested to see the debate branch out, I just watched the eintire video too. I never have a problem with that. My criticism of the original poster was my response to him especcially to his TONE, his choice of words., Others can have all kinds of responses including him (her). I will learn from it, I'm sure. But regardless of my abject despair at the actions of Israel, I will continue to defend individual Israelis as humann when I have to. Those who criticize the government I'll defend more. That's why I keep posting from Haaretz.

Btw I did not find Peres's tone to be "strong" or lecturing. I found him to be  desperate, anguished, torn and almost hysterical. I believe the trauma of the Holocaust has created a traumatized nation.  And I don't understand why all that aid that goes to Israel for weapons, half of it should go to helping the Palestinians, it could go a very long way. People tend to be peaceful when they are well-fed, have good schools, housing, jobs...it could all be done. The whole situation is completely INSANE. It MAKES NO SENSE.

Please let us not discuss the differing perceptions of Peres's affect. It can't go anywhere right now and anyway it is ultimately subjective. Only a lie detector test could help and we don'thave one here.

Best,
Rosie

Please continue.

oxie/Roxy, etc., especially

Peres was great

I mean the man has his issues in the internal politics, but in this case he was magnificent. So now since the content of his words were irrefutable and refreshingly clear enough to expose garbage like Erdogan and his Islamist ilk, you have to parrot the rubbish Erdogan had to invent to keep on bullshitting as usual and all of a sudden the problem becomes his loud voice or the 20 minutes he took (compared to Erdogan's 15 minutes!) If you have watched the video, you know that Erdogan and Mousa together had about half and hour to take the exact same position on all issues.
You have no idea why he was compelled to explain the obvious? Because of morons like Erdogan and the likes of him around the world. OK?

Sorry man, I don't mean to be rude to you, but please stop repeating meaningless allusions when you have nothing to say against clear logic and eloquence of a man who was right.
Here is the link to the video for others by the way:
//iranian.com/main/news/2009/01/30/davos-...

Zion!

Since Rosie's post and the other subject matter are not directly related, then I have to sit this one out with you! ;-)

However, I would like to add the followings; I did watch the entire clip on youtube. President Perez felt compelled (why? I have no idea!) to explain in more then 20 minutes using a strong voice, very hot-headed and lecturing others! It was not appropriate for a stateman of his stature to do that two weeks after the onslaught in Gaza! Now, I am not into conspiracy theories, and if I do spew crap occasionally, please do not read nor respond to them! OK?

Regards Fatollah

Rosie

I am sorry if I didn't see the connection at first! My apology for not reading your entire post. Though, I understood afterwards! I agree with you, and it is true what you emphasise.

Regards Fatollah

Fatollah

This was a typical lie from a typical Islamist what Erdogan said as his excuse. I have the full video of the event on the other news thread. Check it for yourself. Peres spoke only a few minutes more than Erdogan, and he was facing TWO people, Erdogan and Amre Mousa who were basically agreeing on everything. There, what other crap can you come up with now to spew the usual conspiracy theories?

Fatollah, what irks me about the poster who brought up

Turkey OUT OF NOWHERE on this thread is that instead of acknowledging the decent Israelis who wrote this editorial (it is THE editorial of Haaretz for the day, it's toe official opinion of the paper, it's not an op-ed) for muckraking and standing up to the government and demanding dismantling of some of the oldest largest settlement and accusing the goernment basically of TREASON, all the poster can do is spew about "Israel" as though these editors weren't even Israeli, and bring up TUrkey, or Ghana, or Antarctica...or the moon...

Decent Israelis never get any support or encouragement or acknowledgement for trying to do something, all they get is scrreams about Zionazis while their parents lived through the Holocaust, and then people wonder why the centrist Israelis always wind up becoming apathetic or turning to the right.

That's all.

Rosie Rox!

yes yes! Erdogan should have kept his mouth shut!!! As if the Mullahs never killed any Kurd? And still don't ...

What did Erdogan say? He said to the Jewish-American Moderator: "let me finish, you gave President Perez 25 minutes and won't even give me 2" The moderator used the dinner as an excuse to shut him up or wrap up the session!

Now, you can bring the Kurdish issue into the equation, just like most of the Western Media after this episode!

But how about the millions that are killed in the hands of varoius American Governments? Then The columnist from the Washington Post was indeed! not a proper pick to Moderate the panel, don't you think?

PS! I am not fond of any Islamists! But, I tend to protest when I smell a rat, in this case AIPAC's presence in Davos ...

TURKISH Muslim PM, A New Simple of Islamo Facsim

Turkich PM, have accopolished nothing but serving their true partners Hamas. We Iranian have 30 years of an Islamic regime , We know what is feel when a moneky became a Presidnet. so Stop Turkey become another victim of Islamis terrorism.

Its the case of extremist

its the same case that happened in the US , Iran and Hitler Germany. The extremist are always more active and achieve their (obviously cruel) path.

Absolutely. Power to Turkey!..

Any Kurd will tell you that...

More Power to Turkey! Damn zionist baby killers!

For a minute israel lost power over the world media!