www.facebook.com/iransecularii

Wow!! This blog and the

Wow!! This blog and the topic contained in this blog is awesome. And also I got more information about US and their bars. Especially I need to thank you for sharing this kind of topic.
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george
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In my opinion this is an

In my opinion this is an interesting article through which i gathered  alot of valuable information.
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Britney
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We Cannot Compare..........

the criminal justice system of the United States with the corrupt system of the IRI.

While the U.S. system is far from perfect, it does allow for due process where the IRI doesn't.

In the U.S., those who are incarcerated are actually guilty of the crimes for they have been convicted. There are the exceptions that have been exonerated with DNA evidence for example, and those who have had witnesses recant previous testimony. Overall, those who are behind bars in U.S. prisons belong there and more often than not, are released back into society prematurely.

To Bob.....

If blacks and hispanics commit the crime, then what is racist about locking them up? It's disproportionate as you say because they commit these felonies.

Most non-violent drug offenders don't do that much hard time anymore because of overcrowding. Additionally, they still committed a crime. People need to be accountable for their actions, and you seek to give them an excuse.

And the war has nothing to do with this matter.

Jamshid

You are absolutely right, the REASONS that IR executes are VERY DIFFERENT than reasons that US does.

Iran's human rights violation records are among the very worst in the world. I did not intend at anytime to equate the two governments in that sense when it comes to the rights of their own citizens.

As for US human rights violation records outside its borders, their record is not good at all but that is a different subject and not related to this article.

But regardless, catagorically executions are wrong for whatever reason might be and by any method.

Give me a break David

Ali is right and your answer is not good enough. In the US they execute a murderer through letal injection, in Iran, they execute  a 17 years old student for wanting freedom, or stone a woman for the crime of passion.

There is a big difference.

Ali P.

Indeed the due process in US is much more advanced that Iran or China and the intent of the article was not to equate the due process but the results are the same:  killing people.

The subject of execution is a lengthy one, but in summary: Even in US there have been many cases of innocent people being executed, not to mention that once we give an institution (government) the right to kill , there is no guarantee how they may use or abuse it at times.

What many may not recognize is that the slow death starts when the execution verdict is given and it only ends at the noose or the electric chair. Processing it in 10 minutes or 10 years , does not make it any more humane

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUOanRJXCrM 

Craig :)

I actually agree with most of what you are saying, When I wrote: "roots of their self-inflicted social problems " and "misplaced priorities " I did have the role of the family in mind too and that is why I said "Yes , the family and school roles are very important and the current system is not helpful either. "

The only reason that I shy away from the word, "family values" , is that unfortunately like many good words, it has been abused by the neocons to enforce their religious values or morality upon others.

I do agree that in US (and many other places in the world) the importance of the family units have been neglected. As much as I do blame the individuals but I also blame the value system of the consumerism that has been imposed by the elite upon us. I also blame the extremists on both sides, the ultra conservatives and ultra liberals who have both responsible for the loss of human responsibility and values.

The two parents who work long hours, do not help raise responsible kids either. Some do it to keep the bread on the table but then some to make sure that their Infinity car is better than their cousins and their kid has the latest Ipod , they own the latest Iphone,, while their government is mortgaging their future in bogus wars with in Iraq and planning another on Iran.

But once we dissect this phenomenon from the society to the family , we have no choice but to go even further to its core which is the individuals: The human values. It is those human values that have been compromised in return for money by some , for religion by others and for the so called good of the many by others. At the end they each sacrifice this most valuable of all: human being and its rights : as individuals , within family and at social levels.

How can one only blame the children (and their parents) who are being raised by a value system that decides for us what is in and what is out and when?

But at the end of the day, it is really not important which one comes first,: chicken or the egg, what is more important is that , what we are going to do with them!

Not so fast!

There is execution, and then there is execution.

 I happen to be against any kind, but it is totally unfair, to say "executions are carried out in the U.S., in China and in Iran," and somehow try to make it sound like they happen the same way.

 In the U.S., in those states that still do have the capital punishment, you almost never get the death penalty unless you took a human's life, or somehow you were involved in taking a life. Then you are entitled to have a defense attorney ( and if you can't afford one, one is appointed for you), get to put up a defense, with the prosecution having the burden of proof, "beyond reasonable doubt" that you committed the crime. A unanimous jury of your peers( not the government, or some "haakemeh-shar'), has to find you guilty ( 11 out of 12 will result in a hung jury), and then, in the penalty phase, that jury, again unanimously, has to recommend the death penalty for you ( the judge can decrease your penalty, but can't sentence you to death, if the jury didn't recommend it).

  After that, you get to appeal, and appeal, and more appeal, and then, usually 10 years after you have been sentenced, the state gets to finally execute you, usually by lethal injection, not by hanging or stoning.

 Of course, unless the Governor stays the execution, which does happen at times. 

David

The point of this article is to address a problem and we are discussing
it. It is the same point that makes you reply here. I presume since it
is addressing a problem in America vs. Iran, you are being defensive
:-)

No, I don't belive Iran has anything to do with social problems in the US, David. I'm old enough to remember what caused most of America's social problems, though I was a child at the time. All of our social ills of today have their roots in the counter-culture movement that began in the late 1960s and continued through the 1970s. American family structures fell apart during those years, across the board - but most particularly, amongst the poor.

You complain that I offer no solutions, OK but what is yours? or
are you saying there are no solutions. Do you have some solution other
than imprisoning more and more "people"?

The only solution is "family values" - the repair of the American family. That's why you hear those words so much in the US. Or rather, you did, until the War on Terror started. There is no way to salvage career criminals who are already institutionalized in teh US justice system, David. But we can plan for the future. Or try to, anyway. But it's a mistake to think nobody has been trying to find solutions, all these years. The only way to fix social ills is to look at the human factors that cause them. Governments do not create criminals, David. Parents create criminals. When we can teahc people to do a better job of rasining their own children, we will have found a solution.

I don't know if Iran's problems are similar or not. I'm not Iranian, and it's not soemthing I spend very much time worrying about.

Jamshid

Great points and data . Thanks.

This is the consequence of the government taking the (presumed) moral highground by making drugs and prostitution illegal and then using its resources to fight these so called wars (not much different than wasting trillions on foreign wars) and meanwhile ignoring poverty, lack of education, empowering families etc.

Not a whole lot different than the moral highground role and the responsbility that the Islamic Regime, or china claims to have by executing and imprisoning the BAD people.

No wonder the two governments of Iran and US are so much at odds, they both claim to be the keeper of the good versus evil. I do not mean that they both are same, but the neocons, Islamists (and the communists party of china) have the same fundamental PUT THEM AWAY approache to this issue.

That's a HUGE

That's a HUGE number!                

in order to deal with the prison overcrowding, it can always consider forming a new country to exile all of its inmates to...

This is a scary suggestion David. It reminds me of an old movie I watched some times ago called "Escape from New York". Have you seen it? Because it is a more "economical" way of handling this many prisoners, I won't be surprised if it happens some day in the future.

As for solutions, I think we can look in the past for some hints. When alcohol was legalized, contrary to many people's opinion, the USA did not become a nation of alcoholics. I think the same applies to drugs. The majority of those who are in prison committed a crime directly or indirectly related to drugs.

So drug legalization and treatment is one solution. To those who think the US will then become a nation of drug addicts, just remember legalization of alcohol. It worked and it reduced alcohol related crimes.

(By the way the same holds true in Iran, unfortunately, a nation of drug addicts.)

The second solution is disarming the civilians. Make guns illegal, like in many European countries. That should reduce violent crimes.

The third solution is to increase the federal minimum wage by $10 to reach $15/hour! This should reduce much of the property crimes. This is not really too bad. Just do the math. Let's say we want to know how will this impact US businesses for one million minimum wage workers?

1 million people X $10 X 40 hours/week X 52 week/year = approx. $20 billion per year.

Where will this money come from? The war on drugs cost the US $15 billion a year. Another $30 billion is spent on direct and indirect cost of maintaining 2+ million prisoners. Just google some words and you'll find similar numbers. These monies could be better spent.  

I am not a sociologist. I may be wrong. Drugs could be different than alcohol. This is just my personal opinion. 

to Bob

Decriminalize non-violent drug offenders

People doing drugs, contribute, directly and/or indirectly to criminal activity in the society, among many other ills. I wished they were given harsher sentences.

The problem is the Jail

The problem is the Jail Developers/builders. Those who get contracts from the government to build jails have a huge lobby, in which, petty crimes will require your detention. Jail builders/developers get billion dollar contracts to build jails and have a very powerful lobby just like the pharmaceutical companies. Many of the illicit-drug cases should not end up in prison but drug rehab or mental institutions. Many of the prisoners are mentally ill and are housed in the prison system because the "de-institutionalization" of the 80's by Regean Adminstration.

craig

It is a totally false premise to assume 2.3 million Americans are " habitual criminals "!

They are a small prercentage of the larger population, not to mention that the current system actually end up creating habitual criminals at times too.

Yes , the family and school role are veRy important and the current system is not helpful to either.

As for your comment that "American society is unique in this world." I assure you that is exactly what Iran or chinese government tells its people and the world ! Yes each society is unique and each have their own unique solutions.

The point of this article is to address a problem and we are discussing it. It is the same point that makes you reply here. I presume since it is addressing a problem in America vs. Iran, you are being defensive :-) 

You complain that I offer no solutions, OK but what is yours?  or are you saying there are no solutions. Do you have some solution other than imprisoning more and more "people"?

To: David again

David, this problem (high crime rates/high incarceration rates) has existed and has been a primary domestic concern since the 1960s. Many things have been tried, and they have all failed. If you don't have any specific suggestions then what is the point of this post?

-Educate & rehabilitate the ex-con to avoid further incarceration

There is no evidence that "rehabilitation" of habitual criminals works, David. Not just in teh US, but anywhere.

Not to mention the more fundamental social problems, economic
imbalances, lack of education and misplaced priorities that go to
the roots of the bigger issue.

Which is what the Johnson Administration tried with the "Great Society" initiative of the 1960s. Welfare and public housing projects caused a veritable EXPLOSION of inner city crime. It had the exact opposite effect of what was intended. You can't mandate education, David, and you can't force negligent parents to care for their children.

If these problems were so easy to solve, they would have been solved a long time ago. And comparing the US to other countries is not useful either, because American society is unique in this world.

But as for China, I suggest you look into how many Chinese nationals live in re-education camps, or serve as forced labor on communal farms, etc.

Programmer, I have some suggestions

1. Stop being a racist society (disproportionate percentage of Prisoners are black or Hispanic)
2. Decriminalize non-violent drug offenders
3. Don't blame foreigners for everything
4. Stop this stupid war and spend some of those Billions on at risk communities, adult education so people don't end up in Jail.

any questions?

To: programmer craig

The first step to resolving a problem is to recognize that we have one and that is why this article is "constructive".

and don't blame the messenger. I simply stated the FACTS and put them in to perspective: the facts that neither of us like ! 

Of course our other option is to continue to sweep this big problem under the rug until it blows in our face. 

There are solutions to this problem and many of us including the lawmakers have some understanding of it, if we and they care to act on it. Clearly couple of lines do not get in to the depth of it but here are some pointers:

 Investment in rehabilitation and education would save much human and financial resources long run and prevents repeat and new offences.

Not to mention the more fundamental social problems, economic imbalances, lack of education and misplaced priorities that go to the roots of the bigger issue.

An ounce of PREVENTION ..

Suggestions?

With all due respect, this looked like an immature rant to me. Do you feel it was "constructive criticism", or just plain old "criticism", David?

So who do we blame in US of A

So Chinese, Iranian, Pakistanis, etc can blame their government but who do we blame but US, ourselves. We the free people of the this country elect the people that perpetuate this behavior. Now what. Long live "freedom"????