Capt Ayhab

then i concede to the obvious

i probably AM too idealistic.  certainly the irish catholic suffered their share of prejudice back in the day and my parents suffered for it.  when they moved south... and i mean DEEP south, it was even worse back in the early 50's... a CATHOLIC?  ha!  we had one Mass a week in the tiniest little chapel you could imagine...lol.  but i see that nothing compares to the struggles that you describe.  my parents (my father especially) brought us up to take care of ourselves (cause ain't no one else is going to) and to keep our faith strong (cause it's the only thing we'll take when us when we go) and to give everyone else that same respect and honor. 

if you don't mind though... i'm going to add you both to my prayers...  people swear by my mom's rosary abilities...:-0

peace out.

apt_ayhab - Time for Hebrew Lessson

the word אללה in Hebrew reads Allah.

anonymous fish - clarifying things.

I wish to almighty enchilada, to have the type of positive and see-good-in-everybody attitude as you have. The point here, you assume people write thing out of their sleeves. Unfortunately, reality is different, where some of us have had personal and direct experience with the subject matter. You wouldn't know it until they tap you on the shoulder and say "hi, hombre".

you wrote:

i wonder that you speak with such authority about islam?

I lived among them. Have seen the good, the bad and the ugly first hand.

ask our friend capt to explain to you the meaning of word Dhimmi. (search it for yourself). Or Jyzza.

 Quote:

why ignore the positive?  because you can be assured that to Captain,
his faith is based on love and brotherhood. 

What makes you sure I ignore the positive. In fact one of my first blogs here back in July 2008, was about the positive attributes in Islamic cultural.

Here click here and read it.

//iranian.com/main/blog/mehdi-mazloom/ara...

Finally, yes you try to make sense. However, I am afraid, your viewed are too idealistic to meet realities of today - particularity in the murky world of the Judea-Islamic relationship. It if far deeper and insidious then you as innocent catholic bystander could conceive.

mazloom

while i definitely agree with your explanation as it relates to jews and catholics, i wonder that you speak with such authority about islam?  i think... i THINK... that i (and you) would be equally skeptical about someone (perhaps Captain...;-)) speaking with absolute certainty about MY religion, faith, whatever, and that it would be met with some resistance.  especially when that "certainty" is tinged with negativism.  when you present "facts" based on words like "hate and killing and punish", it's NOT going to go over well at all!  why ignore the positive?  because you can be assured that to Captain, his faith is based on love and brotherhood.  try putting yourself in his shoes and realize how offensive YOUR approach might be.

but Captain... i can easily substitute your name for mazlooms.  your approach is equally combative.  i am not suggesting any extreme anti-semitism BY ANY MEANS, but you spend a lot of time and effort posting anti-israeli articles.  your tone is VERY suggestive. 

you know i say this with respect for both of you.  i appreciated your being candid with me when i spoke out of turn or when my tone was perceived as being insulting.  i say this with great love for your culture... but i AM married to an iranian and i can say with some degree of certainty that iranians are just a teeeeeeny bit defensive.  it ain't a "man" thing either cause your khanooms are just as proudful as you are...:-0  (i'm saying this last comment in advance because i know i'm going to attract some bottom feeders but it was one of your VERY esteemed hamvatans that told me that herself... lol)

i'd like to hear back from you.  AND mazloom.  does anything i say make sense to either one of you????

Rumi

نه من منم نه تو توئی
نه تو منم نه من توام
هم تو منی هم من توام
هم من منم هم تو توئی

-YT

My clarification

Criticism one thing, calling 1.5 billion Muslims people of killing and hate another.

We all are adults, and claim to be intelligent[I exclude myself], so it is duty of each to FIRST criticize ourselves, then others: [Let the one without any sins throw the first stone].

I am open and willing to any discussion IF conducted in civil, logical and without any prejudice. One thing I never stand for is when one attempts to demonize one group [ANY GROUP] of people.

Mehdi, If you have read any of my threads or comments I am certain you have noticed that I do not hold any bias toward anyone or any group of people. My position, as a human being has always been crystal clear. Every man, woman, and child of any ethnicity, religion, color, shape, language , etc etc etc are my brothers and sisters. They are my sons and daughters, my neighbors and my friends. Without them I am no one, I am them and they are me.

Rumi, by using ONLY two words[You, Me] puts this in the most eloquent manor:

Na man manam, na to toiei .... Na to mani, na man toam

Ham to mani, ham man toam...... ham man manam,  ham to toie.

to para phrase:

I am not me, you are not you... You are not me , I am not you.

You are me, I am you...... I am me, You are you

-YT

Mazloom

Agho Mehdi,

I assume you speak Hebrew, if so can you tell me what this word is and what does it translates to:

אללה

-YT

anonymous fish - Let me clarify

What I meant to convey is, all three religion's respective holy books do contain passages objectionable to today's social and moral standards. The Old testament contains it, the New testament contains it, and likewise the Quran. 

The point to which I was trying to stress is, you as Catholic, and me as a Jew , we both can express our respective objections to these passages in public. Question their merits, or even ignore them all together.We can even question the foundation of our relgions (think of the DeVinci Code)

In all 3 religions, the creator is labeled and "benevolent", "merciful", and forgiving god, Lord, or Allah. Again Jews and Christians can discuss the merits of these labels, and engage in public constructive polemics, w/o anyone losing his / head. In fact this type of openness guided by the late Pope John Paul II, had brought about healing the 1900 years deep wound between Jews and Christians in general, and Catholics in particular. From my personal experience, antisemitism virtually non-existent among Catholics.

 
Unfortunately that is not the case in Islam. Muslims do not enjoy the same luxury of engaging in open and honest discussion about some of the objectionable passages in Quran. As you read the gentleman's account. Quran is the ultimate authority ( as he terms it, "the most complex document ever written", or was it?). No Muslim is allowed to question, or worse, even express any objection to any of those passages which I posted earlier.

Can you even phantom a Muslim author like Dave Brown writes a version of "The DeVinci Code" about Islam.

My point is, every year scores of innocent people lose their lives because of the rigid and unyielding dogma under which Muslim are forced to live.

Hope now thing will be a bit clearer.

subject? what WAS the subject?

you're right... another hijacking in the making.  :-)

btw.  i don't agree with either.  criticizing something is one thing.  insulting is another.  and it's a fine line to balance.  it's not done very well here...lol.  criticize to you = insult to another.  and so it goes, and so it goes.  i know what you're saying about taking verses out of context.  i don't think ANYONE should quote the bible, torah or koran...:-0  but i certainly agree that someone of a different faith is the last one to try to interpret the meaning. 

but i see that this is hopeless.  no one seems to want to accept the fact that NO ONE is blameless and NO ONE ELSE is completely to blame either.

and so it goes, and so it goes.

?

What was this thread all about anyways? I am certain it was not about quotes from Qur'an.

How did we end up here? It is all mazlooms fault[jk] he hijacked it.

But really, lets get back to the subject.

-YT

Mazloom

[I CAN GO TO MY RABBI AND EXPRESS MY ILL FEELING AND OPINION ABOUT THE
RUBBISH IN MY BOOK. WITH NO FEAR OF RETRIBUTIONS, OR ACCUSED AS HERETIC
(KOFFER).]

I am gald that you can do that and if it works for you and your faith who am I to criticize it.

[YOU WON'T EVEN DARE TO THINK ABOUT THINKING OF DISPUTING ANYTHING IN QURAN - INCLUDING THOSE KE-SSIFIAYAH.]

This is where you go wrong. This is where I keep telling you that you know nothing about Islam to be quoting from it, let alone trying to interpret it.

First rule of understanding Qur'an is to read, comprehend the most complex writing ever existed IN CONJUNCTION with the entire BOOK, and not in pretext of one verse.

It is upon an INDIVIDUAL to read and comprehend the book. However it can not be changed to fit the individual needs. That is why each and every verse must be read as part of the whole.

Foundation of Islam is based on one 3 letter word and that is knowledge[ELM]. It is through knowledge that we can truthfully understand true meaning of the LIFE. Let me explain this to you in a different fashion.

Each and every prophet that were send[literally], in order to stand apart from the rest[imagine those early days], possessed  certain super powers.

In case of Moses was his staff, in case of Jesus was his ability to heal. But in case of Mohammad it was a BOOK, nothing else. Significance of this one single BOOK is to emphasize the most important responsibility of a person and that is to seek KNOWLEDGE.

your words[Much like anonymous fish reminded you I was merely quoting from the the holy Quran.]

I am going to ask you same question I asked fishie: Why is it when anyone criticizes the Israeli policies in the occupied land is viciously labeled an anti Semite and Jew hater. But when you and your kind take verses out of Qur'an and propagate that Islam, and Muslims are religion of hate and killing you merely are EXPRESSING you FREEDOM of SPEECH?

And when one catches you in your hateful propaganda is called [thin skin], and super sensitive? Well dude I ain't buying what ever it is you are selling.

Get my point?

-YT

P/S trust me, you have no idea how tough my skin is ;-)

fishie.....allow me

Why is it when one criticizes the Israeli policies in occupied land  promptly and viciously is called a [Jew Hater] and [Anti Semite], i.e Bishop Tutu, Jimmy Carter.

But when one take verses out of context from Qur'an and calls the Islam a religion of hate and killing is merely expressing him/herself?

Once you answer this then we shall talk.

-YT

wait wait wait

mazloom... how is YOUR god any different than mine... or captains?  they all call for killing and we all call them benevolent.  do you think that because you can go to your rabbi and complain... or i can go to confession... that that makes our faith any stronger? or better?  surely you don't!  do you think captain or myself are any less repelled by the violence that our perspective religions have taught?

if you come to me with an honest and respectful desire to discuss catholism, i'll reply in kind.  we'll discuss. we'll debate.  we'll agree on some issues.  we'll disagree on others.  we'll leave with a healthy respect for one another and a better understanding of our beliefs. 

but if you come at me with insults and accusations, i'll respond in kind.  i know i've said one should turn the other cheek... blah blah blah... but it's hard to do.  SOMEONE HAS GOT TO PUT THEIR SWORD DOWN FIRST.  but you can't call captain thin-skinned when you yourself are quick to jump the gun at a perceived insult.

i hate sticking my neck out like this but you guys are among the best of the best.  i hate to see such valuable energy going to waste when there is absolutely ZERO chance of effectiveness.  you're both right and you're both wrong.

Capt_ayhab I am still scratching my pad.

Tell me agha?. What the world am I going to do with you ha?. Is that famous thin skin of yours, which makes you jump to any slightest criticism. If you are trying to impress me with that famous "insulted" mantra - I am not impressed, nor affected by it. So please cut it out, and do it fast.

Much like anonymous fish reminded you I was merely quoting from the the holy Quran.

It is clear that, while you fix your eyes on few trees, you sure miss to seeing the whole Forrest.

I will be the  first one to admit, Holy Old testament (which I read it  in its original ancient Hebrew language), DOES contain violence, incests and killings, such that it turn my stomach out with convulsion. There is however, a small and very important difference between me as Jew and you as decent Muslim.

I CAN GO TO MY RABBI AND EXPRESS MY ILL FEELING AND OPINION ABOUT THE RUBBISH IN MY BOOK. WITH NO FEAR OF RETRIBUTIONS, OR ACCUSED AS HERETIC (KOFFER).

YOU WON'T EVEN DARE TO THINK ABOUT THINKING OF DISPUTING ANYTHING IN QURAN - INCLUDING THOSE KE-SSIFIAYAH.

My main thesis was, to question the mantra of "god's word" as honest and decent Muslims like you are being led to believe. The challenge to which I was trying to present is, how the hell any god can command mankind to kill each other with such flagrant  violation of humans basic logic of right and wrong.

How can you call such god "benevolant and marciful" toward humans. Do you see the gross contradictions here?.

Capt_ayhab I am still scratching my pad.

ell me agha?. What the world am I going to do with you ha?. Is that
famous thin skin of yours, which makes you jump to any slightest
criticism. If you are trying to impress me with that famous "insulted"
mantra - I am not impressed, nor affected by it. So please cut it out,
and do it fast.

Much like anonymous fish reminded you I was merely quoting from the the holy Quran.

It is clear that, while you fix your eyes on few trees, you sure miss to seeing the whole Forrest.

I will be the  first one to admit, Holy Old testament (which I read it 
in its original ancient Hebrew language), DOES contain violence,
incests and killings, such that it turn my stomach out with convulsion.
There is however, a small and very important difference between me as
Jew and you as decent Muslim.

I CAN GO TO MY RABBI AND EXPRESS MY ILL FEELING AND OPINION ABOUT
THE RUBBISH IN MY BOOK. WITH NO FEAR OF RETRIBUTIONS, OR ACCUSED AS
HERETIC (KOFFER).

YOU WON'T EVEN DARE TO THINK ABOUT THINKING OF DISPUTING ANYTHING IN QURAN - INCLUDING THOSE KE-SSIFIAYAH.

My main thesis was, to question the mantra of "god's word" as honest
and decent Muslims like you are being led to believe. The challenge to
which I was trying to present is, how the hell any god can command
mankind to kill each other with such flagrant  violation of humans
basic logic of right and wrong.

How can you call such god "benevolant and marciful" toward humans. Do you see the gross contradictions here?.

good lord Cap'n!

do you think he's demonizing muslims by quoting the koran?   (if i read your post correctly, you've cut and pasted a blog of mazlooms that you take to be as critical).

if that's what it says... that's what it says!  you can't deny that.  same thing for the bible.  it ain't always about a lovely life in the hereafter!  dude... it talks about killing all over the place!  how many times has someone quoted something from the bible to me as if that is going to make me repent anything!  i don't know what your answer would be but mine is simply that the book was written by men as their interpretation of God's will.  it is up to ME to live my life as i think he intends me to.  the koran and the bible AND the torah are violent.  but we as flesh and blood have the option to interpret them.  we know you're a good man and you're not going to subdue, bind and vanquish!  we could quote the koran, the torah and the bible all day long and it all boils down to the same thing.  God is all powerful and all giving.  MEN... you and me... WE are the ones killing and suffering.  and in the name of God... or Allah.  He must be sick to his stomach seeing what we've done to his word.  don't waste your time trying to defend what is in black and white.  show the true meaning by example. 

you know... the one that says something like... love thy neighbor?

i'm sorry.  i hope this doesn't sound like a lecture.  it's not intended to be.  but we've all gotten so sensitive and look at what's happening around us?  something or someone has got to give. it's not israel's fault.  it's not islam's fault.  it's not christianities fault.  it's our fault as human beings who haven't learned a damn thing in all these thousands of years.

when we gonna learn? 

fishie jan

I think this thread might help the dialogue between you and Abarmard:

-------------------------------------------------

//iranian.com/main/blog/rosie-roxy-roshan...

EXCERPT:

by rosie is roxy is roshan
09-Feb-2009

I havw unfeatured this blog because the video in question is no longer
on the homepage. Thanks to everyone for your participaton.

(The first part of this blog is about New York Jews in general and
the second part is about how that relates to me and this website at
this time).

This blog concerns a video with a textual explanation of it that is
posted at the top of the home page. It is about how certain monied Jews
in New York are pushing for war on Iran. In fact the video is talking
about wealthy Jews.  They are affiliated with AIPAC and the author
interviewed in the video stresses that. This submission has been titled
"New York Jews Pushing for War."

The author interviewed  is a New York Jew. He has written several
anti-war books and books exposing Bush and the Neo-Cons. Although the
title "New York Jews Pushing For War" is in quotation marks, I think it
is a bad choice because it is right on top of the homepage and many
people who "drop by" and just glance over the homepage will see only
that, and believe that most New York Jews are warmongers. So it is
potentially incendiary and damaging. 

Naturally the people who are pushing for war in Iran are also in
favor of Israel's actions. I am a New York Jew. I am a non-Zionist and
a pacifist and you know where I stand as regards Iran. All of my close
Jewish friends are non-Zionists or at least strongly against the
Israeli regime and they protest it. One of them has been traveling back
and forth between New York and Palestine for years to expose Israel's
wrongdoings to the press. My mother is 82 years old and spent much of
her time even though her eyesight is failing and has arthritis writng
letters to newspapers asking for Bush's impeachment ever since the
invasion of Iraq. We are peace-loving people.

Manattan along with Berkeley is in by voters the most progressive
district in the country. Many many Jews here are against the actions of
the state of Israel, against war period here. We had large anti-war
demonstrations immediately following the destruction of the World Trade
Center when Bush first discussed the invasion of Afghanistan and the
most popular slogan was "Not in My NAme." Many of the activist leaders
were Jewish. Yes, we are peace-loving people.

I am also concerned about the title at this point in the website's
history because (until the other day) I took myself seriously as a
peace activist and I have always tried to bring that to the website, in
encouraging Iranians of my generation to arrive at Truth and
Reconciliaton between the warriry politcal factions. I had some success
and people thanked me for it. I came back to the website when Gaza
exploded because of my unusual status here as a (here) well-known
non-Zionist and non-Iranian Jew to help make peace because I believe
peace in the world begins with individuals and this is as good a place
as any to start, actually better because of its vast outreach.

However I did something that was so disgraceful the other day that
it was very damaging to the peace of the website, particularly painful
to me because I'd had a few conversatons with people here who admitted
to me that they had been suspicious of Jews and I'd helped them to
understand that this cruel Zionist regime and Israel itself are not
representative of the Jewish people or even many Israelis by our
nature, although many have become psychologically ill due to the trauma
of our recent histo, and I encouraged those people to dialogue with
Zionists, to influence voters so that there could be hope.

What happened the other day has completely undermined my credibility
on and undone any work I did here toward peace, especially concerning
Gaza. I have probably become for those particular  people as much a
negative representative of the Jewish people as our beloved Zion,
because at least Zion isn't a hypocrite. Those people who I had
achieved positive dialog with mocked me.  And this title could
reinforce that perception. I'd planned to blog on all this soon anyway
to explain that because of all this it will be necessary for me to
leave the website permanently. This isn't like last time which I
explained was due to a personal situation, When you are a public figure
and you are implicated in a scandal you have to step down.

I am also afraid that due to what I did, there is even a possiblity
that subconscously this title might plant even one tiny seed
subconsciously in someone's head who never felt that way before  that
we New York Jews and Jews in general are warmongers. And that is a very
dangerous thing because as I said peace begins with individuals and you
can't have peace over there where real blood is being shed until you
have it here. So for the peace movement to lose even one person is a
tragedy.

Please change title, Jahanshah, to: AiPAC PUSHING FOR WAR ON IRAN.

End Excerpts

------------------------------------------------------------- 

-YT

fishie.......FYI

[seriously... i would like to know how you consider that mazloom is
demonizing iran.  i think he made a very pointed statement concerning
their honor.]

//iranian.com/main/news/2009/02/12/banned-dut...

Are these the words of Allah???????

by Mehdi Mazloom on Thu Feb 12, 2009 01:32 PM PST

Just count the number of times Allah the Merciful and the compassionate repeats the words FIGHT and KILL.

The question then begs, is the same "comassionate, and Mercifule" god,
is also a bloodthirsty and murderous one. Or "somebody-we-know-whom,
had just invented god as his own alter-ego to make others to do the
biddings for him, while himself literally gets away with murder. You be
the judge.

Qur’an 9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush
them using every stratagem of war.”
Qur’an 9:112 “The Believers
fight in Allah’s Cause,
they slay and are slain, kill and are killed.”

Qur’an 9:29 “Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender,
paying the protective tax in submission.”

Qur’an 8:39 “So

fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]
and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole
world).”

Qur’an 9:14 "

Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, lay them low, and cover them with shame. He will help you over them.”

Qur’an 8:65 “O Prophet, urge
the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will
vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter
a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of
understanding.”

Qur’an 9:38 “Believers, what is the
matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and

fight
in Allah’s Cause  you
cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the
Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a
painful doom, and put others in your place.”

Qur’an 9:123 “Fight
the unbelievers around you,
and let them find harshness in you.”

Qur’an 47:4 “When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in
Allah’s Cause),

smite
their necks until
you overpower them, killing
and wounding many of them.
At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly,
making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down
its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out
Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam.”

Qur’an 2:193 “Fight them until
there is no more Fitnah (disbelief) and religion is only for Allah.
But if they cease/desist, let there be no hostility except against
infidel disbelievers.”

Qur’an 2:246 “He said: ‘Would you refrain from fighting if fighting were prescribed for you?’
They said: ‘How could we refuse to fight in Allah’s Cause?’”

//iranian.com/main/news/2009/02/12/banned-dut...

-YT

One speaks of truth..........

It is time to address mr. capt accusations point-by-point. As mentioned by others here. whenever I come to defend my country against your accusation, you call it  propaganda. But whenever you level broad and baseless accusation, it is by the holy name of ghorme' sabzi (sorry, can't help it), it is the gospel truth. 

CASE IN POINT:

You wrote:

What if world wakes up and tries Israeli leaders for all the crimes they have committed in the name of self defense?

Because every rational person knows it is self defense. If You don't want to see it that way, that is your issue.

What if Israel stops being the big bully and aggressor in the region?

Do not attack them, and they won't have reason to be bully. 

What if Israel respects the right of rest of the ME for existence?

The fact is, the exact opposit is the truth.

What if AIPAC stops demonizing entire Muslim world for their political gains?

Ask the holocaust denying Jewish bashing Mullahs in Tehran. They will provide the answer.

What if you worry about YOUR country and tell YOUR country to stop planning WAR and attack on Iran?

Again, Akhmadinejad and the Mullahs in Tehran know the  answer to that question.

What if Israel really becomes what they preach, and that is real peace.

They are.

What if Israel stops all the lies and propaganda about Iran?

Mullahs and Iranian people are two different entities. No entity does a better job at fostering this propaganda then the akhoondah themselves.No Aipac, no Israelis, and not even the Almighty pollo e' keshmesh.

What if you LEARN a little bit about other people instead of SPEWING hate and propaganda at all times?

Remember please. I know you, speak your language (though not fluent), know your cultural, past glory and customs. You don't know anything about me, my country, cultural, language and history.

What if Zionist stop teaching HATE?

nothing compares to the  Islamists Mullahs  preaching on Friday afternoon prayers at the Tehran Univerity.

My friend, everything you see happening in ME is sole responsibility of
Israel, and so as long as people of Israel support blindly their
criminal governments the resistance is going to go on.

Like they invent the occupation (of Gaza), to manufacture "Resistance". The irony is, very few people believe them anymore.

Repeating the lies and propaganda, as you have been doing, does not
turn a lie to truth. Wake up and smell the blood you have been spilling
in the world.

My good man, you are becoming hostage to your own imagination. Indirectly, you seem to allude that 15M Jews are controlling the lives of 1500M Muslims. I don't think it is true. However, speaking of reality and being in touch with facts. You tell me.

Sure anonymous fish

To quickly answer before you read, the scoping and objectives are different. What is the strategy set to do? When is the core objective satisfied? What are the actions that are acceptable to reach those objectives?

Please do read the article. That is a very good start. We can go from there.

Abarmard

will do... thanks for the link.  but again, my point is that as a group, AIPAC is no different than NIAC.  their intention is to provide support for the jewish people.  i wonder what constraints would be put upon NIAC and by whom, if they are given the opportunity to become so powerful themselves.  but as you say, i will do more than a little research.  i look forward to discussing with you further!

peace out.

anonymous fish

If you are interested to know what the lobby is and does, please read the link below. An independent study by Harvard and University of Chicago department of political science and school of government. Once you read this and have questions and disputes, we can go from there. I would like you to have the necessary information before starting a serious debate.

//ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpaper.nsf/rwp/RWP06-011/$File/rwp_06_011_walt.pdf 

cap'n

can i ask a question without inviting a s**t storm on my head?  :-)

seriously... i would like to know how you consider that mazloom is demonizing iran.  i think he made a very pointed statement concerning their honor.

and are you really going to deny that iran has made incendiary comments regarding attacks on israel?

"...with name calling (Zionists) which is an pseudo for "dirty Jews"."

surely you must accept that this is true.  for not to acknowledge that simple fact is to open the door to comparisons that would be equally painful to you... as a muslim and as an iranian.

i made a very VERY careless comment one time and was called to the mat for it.  i was called anti-muslim because i made a stupid comment suggesting muslims weren't fair.  i apologized for it and am quite clear and certain that i've NEVER denegrated any ethnic group as a whole.  but these accusations of lies and hate and propoganda... can you not see that you're doing just that yourself?  if YOU post an article about israel, it's news and by god, it's the truth. if mazloom or anyone else posts an article suggesting that israel isn't the devil in disguise, it's propoganda.

i think you're a extremely intelligent and passionate person.  i don't understand why you can't see the unfairness in all this.

Mazloom

No matter how hard you try to sugar coat the INCIDENTS, fact remains that the  Israeli's have been cleansing the Arabs from Israel. This has been their policy since the inception of Israel.

Just take a look at all the war crime charges against IDF, and Israeli leader. Unless you want to claim they are isolated cases as well.

And agha Mehdi,  I have always respected everyone's political beliefs, and their polarity. For that fact I try my best not to engage in name calling and demonizing a nation like you have been doing. But in your case, your blatant denial of facts and the truth has been astonishingly troublesome to me.

I refuse to sit aside and allow you , or anyone else to demonize Iran and Iranians, by resorting to ugly lies and dirty propaganda schemes. I have always asked you not to spam the threads with baseless allegations and repetitive slogans aimed at belittling Iranians and Muslim. But you refuse to change your way of engagement. As a result we have what we have.

This thread had nothing to do with what you posted. It was about US foreign policy and how previous administration deceived the nation, but you chose to repeat your usual hateful and racist propaganda.

End of conversation

-YT

Fishie

Sorry for delay in my response.

He is in his third yr of residency[2 more to go] and he is doing Emergency Medicine in one of most difficult NE Uni's.

-YT

Response to All.

I truly appreciate the critisizm which many of you have leveled against capt & myself.

No, I did not come here to "fight", nor deionized anyone - particularly the Iranian people, whom I consider brave and oppressed.

Nor do I wish to get into pissing contents with anyone, who opposes Israel's policies. By all means do criticize when it is merited. All I am (and I am sure other Israelis here) wish to do is to present the view from other size of the coin - our side. Some will agree, some won't. However when someone like my good friend capt comes here and spends most of his posts with hip shoot and aimless barrage of accusation against Israel, with name calling (Zionists) which is an pseudo for "dirty Jews". I am afraid, such people need and will be corrected.

Capt agha, bringing clips from YouTube some isolated comments made by individual solders, denigrating the Pals, or from an outlawed (Kaakh party) extremist, is not the true reality in Israel.

Abarmard

are you implying that AIPAC is any different than NIAC?  i'm talking about "in principal".  forget that they have become rooted in our government or life or whatever.  forget your bias against israel.  because if you ARE suggesting that they are horrible... what do you say about NIAC?  do isreal and the jewish people want anything different than iran and all iranians.  hear me again... i'm not condoning anything zions have done.  i am not condoning violence against palestineans.  but if you're going to say stuff like that about an organization that only wants the best for IT'S people... be prepared for a long hard fight.  israel provides the US with the only ally in the ME.  and iran isn't an ally.  not yet anyway.

From wiki:
AIPAC's stated purpose is to lobby the Congress of the United States on issues and legislation including:

-Pressuring the Palestinian Authority to adhere to its commitments to fight terrorism and incitement against Israel.
-Strengthening the bond between Washington and Jerusalem through shared intelligence and foreign military and economic aid (totaling $2.52 billion in 2006).

Abarmard: What is your

Abarmard: What is your credentials as an academic?

What university did you get your doctrate from and in what field?

AIPAC

Based on my research and understanding, after years of investigations, I direct my finger at AIPAC and rightly so. It's a shame that not many Americans get involve to free this system from this infection (I highly doubt that it is even possible since now AIPAC has rooted itself within the central intelligence). It's getting easier by year to find more about this horrible organization and its power over the US government. Scary.Time to ask who is working for whom.

to Mazloom and Captain!

Captain whatever and Mazloom!!

What if both of you stop inciting hatred and violence?

What if you defuse tension and try to understand others point of view?

What if both of you stop displaying an alarmingly Bush-like inability to acknowledge your blind spots?

What if you both stopped your inflammatory cliches?

What if you both realize that you have common cause in common cause with each other , against the tendency toward extremisms on both sides?

What if you both tried to have a non-hysterical and paranoid perspective?

What if you both tried a bit of honesty?

What if you both try responding to each other without being self-righteous or evasive?

What if you both saw the muslims, jews, and the American government/people as People instead of something you need to eliminate?

What if ALL OF US stopped knee-jerked comments by engaging in a civil dialogue NOT a monlogue?

What if both of you **listened** to each other legitimate grievances without a shouting match and silly name callings??

Demonizing a people (iranians, jews, Americans, etc...Yes, governments are people too) can take us down the dark path of human suffering & the violent death of innocent civilians.