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Why Islam Is In Shambles
25-Jan-2008
Islam is in shambles for a variety of reasons. A major problem with Islam is that there are as many different versions of Islam as there are Islamic pundits and there are legions of them.
Another reason why Islam is in shambles is that it is all things to all people. Even a cursory study of the Qur’an, the immutable word of God, as Muslims see it; the Hadith, the authoritative sayings of the Prophet; and, the Sunna, the Prophet’s life conduct, present a body of contradictory and even outright erroneous information. This body of Islamic doctrine enables a person to pick and choose the parts he likes and ignore those he doesn’t like. This feature explains why some of the good as well as the most beastly people are Muslims. Amazingly enough, both types justify themselves and their behavior by selectively citing from the Qur’an, the Hadith and the Sunna.
Here is only one example of taking an Islamic teaching as you prefer it. The Qur’an admonishes the believers: Jahedoo fee sabeel-u-llah—make jihad for the cause of God. Literally translated, this phrase directs the believers to exert themselves in service to the cause of God. The catch is in the word “exert.” Some Muslims understand it as spiritual exertion. Other Muslims take it as a commandment to exert themselves by the sword. And both can be right because the rest of the Qur’an not only fails to clarify the statement, but adds further substance to each position. It is in cases like this that the pronouncements of the Islamic high divines can sway the balance in favor of one or the other. Unfortunately, not many voices of Islamic authorities are raised on the side of tolerance, peacefulness and other positive teachings of Islam. The most one hears from Islamic apologists are time-worn and banal pronouncements such as “Islam is a religion of peace.”
It is a sad fact that generation after generation of Sunni Moftis—highest ranking Sunni clerics—and Ayatollahs—highest ranking Shiite clerics, over the years have indoctrinated their underling clergy as well as the masses with selective teachings that promote intolerance, exclusion and hostility toward non-Muslims—people labeled as heathens, infidels, unbelievers and apostates. Selective choice of the scripture, combined with a siege mentality endemic to the cradle of Islam, the Middle East, generate a fury of hatred that has the potential of devouring the world. If only Muslims could purge the negative aspects of its scripture and practice its positive teachings, the world would become a diverse community of humanity at peace with one another. The question is: Is that possible or are we headed for the clash of the civilizations?
There are some wonderful statements in the Qur’an. One, for instance, says: The most beloved amongst you in the sight of God is the one who is the most virtuous. Not the rich, not the powerful and not the hateful. The most virtuous is most beloved, it says. Yet the radical Islamists have come to interpret killing and maiming the infidels as great acts of virtue, acts that would make them most beloved by God.
Reforming Islam is unfortunately not a realistic possibility. About the only universal agreement that exists among Islamic authorities is that every word of the Qur’an is the word of God and is not subject to human modification, ever. The ‘Hadith’ also enjoys a similar sacrosanct standing. And of course, the faithful Muhammad’s conduct as recorded in the Sunna is the model to be emulated. Hence, one can pick and choose, but one can not discard or revise any part of the scripture. For this reason a Martin Luther type reformation has not happened and will not likely ever happen within Islam.
Islam’s detractors point out numerous absurdities in the Islamic scripture. In fairness to Islam, we can find just as many perceived absurdities in other religious scriptures. Many of the scriptures’ absurdities may, in fact, be allegories, metaphors, similes and symbols. Islamic scripture, for instance, records that Muhammad split the moon in half with his sword. Clearly, splitting the moon must be taken symbolically. Some claim that in this case “moon” stood for high ranking religious divines of the time and Muhammad destroyed them by the sword of his new faith. It was the material sword that sallied forth out of the Arabian dessert and forced Islam on people far and wide.
The fact that Islam is a splintered house complicates matters greatly. The faith is divided into Sunni and Shiites sects with numerous sub-sects. The divisions and contentiousness are so profound that members of one sect consider the other Muslims as apostates worthy of death. The division goes back to the time of the Prophet himself. Shiites believe that the enemies of true faith subverted its chain of authority at Muhammad’s death. They claim that the Prophet, while on his deathbed, asked for a parchment to dictate his will and to appoint Ali, his cousin and son-in-law, as his successor. The Shiites claim that Omar, an influential disciple and commander of the faith, declined the request saying to the Prophet: hasbena ketab-ul-llah—sufficient unto us is the book of God. Before long, division and infighting started in earnest and continues to this day. Oppression of Shiite minorities in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are only two glaring instances of this longstanding and irreconcilable intra-faith hostility. The Shiite majorities in other lands return the favor to the Sunni minorities, as is the case in Iran. The recent horrific sectarian killings in Iraq represent glaring instances of irreconcilable differences among the various claimants to the mantle of true Islam.
The Bible says, “By their fruits shall ye know them.” The fruits of Islam are there for everyone to see for himself. Islam may have given the world some choice fruits. It has assuredly given the world many poisonous fruits as well.
Some claim that Islam is inherently good, the majority of Muslims are good and only a small minority has hijacked the good faith of Muhammad by engaging in acts of intolerance, hatred and violence. The question is: why is it that the good Islam is not ruling in the world and the bad Islam is engulfing it in fire? Human nature is the culprit, in part. We humans are attracted to hate like flies are to honey. Hate is an easy sell. It is appealing and little effort is required to hate. Hate gathers up the person’s or the group’s frustrations, anxieties, fears, paranoia and many other negative emotions in one handy bundle and hurls it at a convenient target. History is replete with instances of hate energizing the masses into commitment of small and large scale atrocities.
Sell hate and people queue several blocks to buy. Sell love and you will be mostly by your lonely self. Is this a cynical view? No, it is a realistic one. It describes human’s lower and primitive nature which must be painstakingly overcome through persistent education and awakening of man’s higher nature.
Religious high authorities play a critical role in steering the masses toward or away from hate. The late Pope’s public pronouncement, for instance, absolving the Jews as the Christ killers has reduced anti-Semitism among the rank and file Christians. Fatwas—religious decrees—by Islamic Moftis and Ayatollahs carry considerable weight with their respective followers. Sadly, most decrees and adjudications of these high Islamic authorities are exclusionary and even hostile toward the out-groups. These high divines are the suppliers of opinions as well as the teachers of the rank and file clergy who take the same ideas to the masses in villages and cities. Madresehs in Pakistan, schools in Saudi Arabia and Maktabs—religious schools—in Iran, as well as numberless mosques serve as places where the disease of hate can be transmitted with considerable success to the just too willing believers.
This virulent disease of hate of “others,” is now leaving its traditional Muslim lands and infecting cities, towns and villages of the larger world. Muslims believe that the earth is Allah’s and all of it rightfully belongs to the Muslims. Non-Muslims in any land are simply usurpers and occupiers who must either convert to Islam or give way to the legitimate people—the Muslims.
In Islam’s theocracy, religious authority is conferred by an informal consensus of the peer group. One becomes an Ayatollah, for instance, by demonstrating to other ayatollahs his undeviating devotion to the dogma they hold. If one deviates from the accepted line, he is not likely to make a village mullah, much less an Ayatollah. This is a systemic problem that is not amenable to change. It is a pathological theological inbreeding.
Islam or religions in general are sources of energy. The energy can achieve magnificent things or destroy anything. It is up to us to put religion to good use, as people have done for millennia, and to avoid using it as a weapon of death and destruction—again, as people have done so for millennia.
In the Islamic theocracies, everyone pretends publicly his undeviating belief in the faith, as preached and promoted in his locality. If there are any unbelievers, doubters or atheists, they have to hide, not in closets, but in deep subterranean holes. Pressure to be religious is so great that pretending piety is an art form. Yet, much of religious ado is per forma rituals. Admittedly, things are hardly any better in the non-Islamic lands. People, once a week, go to a religious service, repent of their sin, pay up and go back to a life of sin for the next six days in a sinful world.
Perhaps there is a way out of the present impasse with Islam. Iran’s President Ahmadinejad has invited President George W. Bush, albeit in a convoluted eighteen page epistle, to embrace Islam. Ahmadinejad seems to think that Bush is the most powerful man in the world. He must have concluded that if Bush were to embrace Islam, the masses of infidels would follow his example.
Let us for a moment accept Ahmadinejad’s summon. Question: Which sect of Islam and which one of its numberless sub-sects should we join? Beside the two major branches of Sunnis and Shiite, there are dozens and dozens of sub-sects, and schools, each of which is mortally convinced they represent the only true Islam. Ahmadinejad’s own brand of Islam is alien to the majority of even the Shiites. He is reportedly a devout member of a remodeled and secretive hate-based Hojjatieh which is presently operating under the guise of the Haghani sect under the leadership of a most close-minded fanatical leader—Ayatollah Mesbah Yazdi.
Further complications present themselves. Space limitation does not allow presenting all of them here. Only one should suffice for now. One of the issues Muslims, worldwide, are in general agreement on is the status of women. It places women squarely under the thumb of men. It says in the Quran: Alrejaalo qawaamoon al-alnesa—men are rulers over women. Women of non-Islamic world have valiantly worked to attain a degree of equality with men. They are not likely to barter their hard-earned rights for the privilege of becoming head-to-toe covered second class citizens, deprived of education and opportunities. We, non-Muslim men, are not going to leave our emancipated, fully participating and contributing members of our society behind and subjugate ourselves to a barbaric set of Shriah laws which were enacted by stone-age mentality.
In conclusion, Islam is not only divided, it is shattered. It is in shambles, long past fixing itself, much less ruling the rest of the world. It is time that Muslims, those who consider themselves good and peaceful, as well as those who want us to accept their ideology of barbarism at the point of the sword, to take the fateful step and join the free and emancipated family of humanity. There is no going back. Barbarism is in our past.
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Re: Mona19
by Iranian- (not verified) on Wed Jan 30, 2008 01:04 PM CSTDear Mona19,
You are okay. I certainly did not mean to say that you should ONLY accept Prophet Mohammad. In fact if you believe in God and say you are Christian or Jewish or whatever but also accept Mohammad too as a prophet of God, then that is good.
I do believe as Heaven(Paradise) and Hell as real places. I will try to explain this later hopefully in a future Blog.
God bless you.
Iranian-
by Mona19 (not verified) on Wed Jan 30, 2008 07:34 AM CSTDear Iranian
I believe no matter what religion you practice, or what you believe, under all conditions we are immersed in a sea of God's blessings.
I 'm not agree with what you said"" if you don't accept prophet Muhammad,as you said they might not really be all that 'good'! Ignorance is not bliss!""
I do believe in all divine religions (Jewish,Christianity,Islam,Zorastrian,...)
they are just in different stages of sprituality.
love of God is infinite and never ceases to rain down upon all people.the THINGS WE DO may become like BARRIERS that will not allow his love to reach us.
and about heaven and hell my fellow hamvatan here is what I believe:
the descriptions of Heaven and Hell given in some of the older religious writings as symbolic, like the Biblical story of the Creation, and not as literally true.
HEAVEN is the state of perfection, and HELL that of imperfection; HEAVENis harmony with God’s will and with our fellows, and HELL is the want of such harmony; HEAVEN is the condition of spiritual life, and HELL that of spiritual death.
The joys of Heaven are spiritual joys; and the pains of Hell consist in the deprivation of these joys.
my dear hamvatan GOD of Muhammad is God of Jesus, and Moses. There is only one God who has created all the creatures and forces in the universe;and although people have different concepts of God and God's nature, and call God by different names, everyone is speaking of the same one Being.
please remember this QUOTATION:
""The tabernacle of unity has been raised; regard not one another as strangers. we are the fruits of one tree ( tree of humanity), and the leaves of one branch.""
with loving greetings,
Mona
Lost Identity
by Mona19 (not verified) on Wed Jan 30, 2008 06:52 AM CSTDear Lost Identity
You're right!
I don't fear God because he will punish me,I 've fear that my actions, my wrongdoing , will PREVENT the love of God from REACHING me.
THE ONLY UNLIMITED LOVE IS THE LOVE OF GOD, and his love is all embracing.HIS LOVE IS INFINITE AND NEVER CEASE TO RAIN DOWN UPON HUMANITY(everyone)
""Never lose thy trust in God. Be thou ever hopeful, for the bounties of God NEVER cease to flow upon man.... Man is under ALL CONDITIONS immersed in a sea of God’s blessings. Therefore, be thou not hopeless under any circumstances, but rather be firm in thy HOPE.""
""If the heart turns away from the blessings God offers how can it hope for happiness? If it does not put its hope and trust in God’s Mercy, where can it find rest? Oh, trust in God! for His Bounty is everlasting, and in His Blessings, for they are superb.""
My Blessings of God be with u today and always.
UNITY,LOVE,PEACE
Mona :)
Re: Mona
by LostIdentity (not verified) on Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:14 AM CSTThe highest level of LOVE is not to love out of Joy, Not to love out of fear BUT love God for what God is - The only existence. There's truly no strings attached to love of God.
In this day and age, our brain has become a major roadblock in the way of spiritual knowledge. I guess one day, Mankind will opt to the next knowledge level, where Einsteins Unifed Field Theory will become like 1st Newtonian Law of Physics and we will understand the power of spiritual knowledge as compared to mental knowledge.
Re: Anon....4now
by LostIdentity (not verified) on Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:04 AM CSTI only have time to responde to one of your points which is heart of the matter;
You say:"Your analogy is as rigid as your stance on religious matters. In the example of wine, if this poor wine maker had allowed himself to question and understand why grape juice turns into vinegar (aerobic fermentation) or wine (anaerobic fermentation) then he would not have to stand in awe and say jallal khalegh."
You see that is exactly my point. You are just proving to me that we need certain tools to go after and find the ROOT CAUSE for a phenomena. If we have "THE KNOWLEDGE" or "VISION" of knwoing what makes the grapes turn to Vinegar or Wine, it will be easy to accept the phenomena. That is exactly my point. In order to understand the world beyond time/space, one needs to realize that he/she needs different set of tools to acquire the knowledge. The brain will take us so far on this front .....then...we need to opt to different set of tools to grasp the idea. Please tell me how your mind grasps the idea of INFINITY, a preliminary concept in math. Can you prove it does or does not exist?
Inn order to let your mind dwell in free zone, you need to let the political attachments loose. I'm not here to prove God exist and make you moslem or does not exist to make you atheist. For sure, I will not worship God if I can prove God's existence by my brain and for that matter, rest assured I won't worship God based on somebody elses approval!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Re: Anonymous4now
by Iranian- (not verified) on Tue Jan 29, 2008 01:08 PM CSTI understand what you are asking. I used to be in a similar situation as you are today, believe me, I was! I was just maybe a little bit more considerate than you are now and I did not publicly critisize God's religions or their followers.
I think I am going to register here and set up my own Blog. That way I can answer your questions and many others. Maybe that will be helpful.
One other detail, when you refer to the Prophet Mohammad as a primitive Arab, you must remember that if that was the case, Moses was a slave and Jesus was also a primitive Jew.
This is the first obstacle you need to pass. Do not expect a prophet of God to be a highly educated or a wealthy person! If you understand why that is, you'll begin to undertand God himself.
Re: Mona 19
by Iranian- (not verified) on Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:17 AM CSTAs I have said in my previous postings, I like all good Christians, Jews and Zoroastrians, specially if they are from Iran.
If someone is 'good' but rejects Islam and the prophet Mohammand, well, they might not really be all that 'good'! Ignorance is not bliss!
Hell and Paradise are the places one's soul will go to when they depart this world. Hell is a place to punish the bad and Paradise is a place to reward the good.
You asked me who goes to Hell and who to Paradise? Well, only God makes that decision because he has all the facts.
RE.Anonymous4now
by Mona 19 (not verified) on Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:01 AM CSTThank you so much for you comments, and reading mine.
as an individual being I respect you and your belief.
even thought you're not agree with me.
if you like, please go and read my comments for jamshid. It might answer your questions.
p.s.
I'm waiting for Iranian- to answer my questions.
You never know I might go hell as well( just joking)
You are not INFIDEL (kafar), believe me!
peace,
Mona
Dear Iranian-
by Anonymous4now (not verified) on Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:40 AM CSTI was not offended by your remarks, but thank you for exercising your civility, anyway.
What I yearn to know, is why God made his presence so obvious to you and so obscure to me that you knowingly praise him and will end up in Heaven, but I unknowingly defy him and end up in Hell. I do not mean to insult him or his believers, but why did he create me this way? Is it my fault to have been born such an infidel? Why does he discriminate like this? Believe me, I am a very spiritual person, but my spirituality swerves me away from this God of Islam, because I see him as Jabbar, the figment of imagination of a primitive Arab, and not the supreme intelligence in this universe.
Dear lost Identity
by Anonymous4now (not verified) on Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:27 AM CSTYou posted a response to me, but, apparently, did not read my response to you on that other thread. I have re-edited it to post it here.
Your analogy is as rigid as your stance on religious matters. In the example of wine, if this poor wine maker had allowed himself to question and understand why grape juice turns into vinegar (aerobic fermentation) or wine (anaerobic fermentation) then he would not have to stand in awe and say jallal khalegh.
The self proclaimed men of God feed on willing minds like yours. You have given up control of your mind and your soul to these con artists and have convinced yourself of their divinity. You seem like a very spiritual person, the question is do you need to belong to a fraternity to exercise that spirituality? No one is questioning why you believe in God. My impression is that your God is different from Mohammad's God (mcuh more compassionate and much more fatherly), but your are bringing up excuses for Mohammad's God.
If you believe this tool of ours (the brain) is inadequate to understand God then why accept someone else's notion of what God is? If this God had guided a messenger to make his presence known to us then shouldn't that messenger make sense? Should he not be a perfect bastion of morality for all to follow, instead of having to be defended, throughout history, for committing atrocities and immoral behavior? If it does not make sense to you, then you should question it without fear of retribution, because your God should know your limitations and make his presence better known, not play tricks on you, then become mad at you and threaten to punish you. To close your eyes and accept, without questioning, would amount to idol worshiping. How is the Allah of Islam different from the allah Mohammad destroyed in Ka’abeh?
Re.Iranian-
by Mona 19 (not verified) on Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:24 AM CSTThe betterment of the world can be accomplished through PURE and GOODLY DEEDS, through COMMENDABLE and
SEEMLY CONDUCT...
Can you please answer my questions?
1--So you say if somebody is practice Islam is go to HEAVEN and if it's not straight to HELL.
2--and if some one is Muslem he/she is a good person with pure hurt and if he/she is not a evil one?
so what about jewish/Christian/Zoroastrian/...
they didn't accept prophet Muhammad and Islam. what about them?
3-- What 's your interpretation of HELL & HEAVEN??
What's true meanings of these terms?
regards,
Mona
Jamshid and Anonymous4now
by Iranian- (not verified) on Tue Jan 29, 2008 08:51 AM CSTYou might feel bad that I called you guys 'dumb'. If you do, I'm sorry. I did not mean to hurt your feeling even though you and other people like you hurt INNOCENT Muslims feelings by insulting their religion.
Unfortunately, I cannot discuss with you Islam because I think that you simply do not understand. This is because you chose to be anti-Islamic; no one forced you to be like that.
There has been many cases of people who were not Muslims and did wrong (killing, stealing, hurting...) in this world but knew nothing about Islam. After they found out about Islam they repented and became good people. They never committed any more wrong in this world after they became Muslims.
So, you see, you already know about Islam and reject it. You are therefore rejecting God and his last known religion.
Jamshid is worrying that a Muslim would hart him in this world. Poor man. What you should really be worried about is what will happen to you in your after-life, not this world!
Re.Jamshid Never lose your trust in god :)
by Mona 19 (not verified) on Tue Jan 29, 2008 08:01 AM CSTDear Jamshid
Never lose your trust in God. Be thou ever hopeful, for the bounties of God never cease to flow upon man. If viewed from one perspective they seem to decrease, but from another they are full and complete. Man is under all conditions immersed in a sea of God’s blessings. Therefore, be not hopeless under any circumstances, but rather be firm in your hope.
With Loving Greetings,
Mona
Re: Lost Identity Fear of God & Love of God
by Mona 19 (not verified) on Tue Jan 29, 2008 07:50 AM CSTI do believe in God, and GOD of Muhammad is God of Jesus, and Moses. There is only one God who has created all the creatures and forces in the universe;God is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfect; and that although people have different concepts of God and God's nature, and call God by different names, everyone is speaking of the same one Being.
and of course you need to ask questions and investigate about it, we can not accept sth blindly.
and about fear and love of God this is what I believe.
The human heart was created to love. it is in its nature to be bound to sth. if it is not to be attached to earthly things and is to be able to reflect the light of God, it has to be bound to God. there are many ways of expressing love.
we love our families,our friends, our community, our country.
however, all of these forms of love are limited.
THE ONLY UNLIMITED LOVE IS THE LOVE OF GOD.his love is all embracing. when our hearts are pure and reflect his love, express unlimited and unselih love for the entire human race.
unless our love for others in illumined by the limitless love of God, it can take on undesirable characteristics, such as jealousy, possessiveness, and prejudice.
there is one very important characteristic of love we must understand. love is always accompanied by fear.
this does not mean that w fear he ones we love.what we FEAR is either losing our loved ones or losing their love--fear that our actions, our actions, our wrongdoing , will prevent the love of God from reaching us.
this is not to say that OUR ACTIONS WILL STOP GOD FROM LOVING US, FOR HIS LOVE IS INFINITE AND NEVER CEASE TO RAIN DOWN UPON HUMANITY( all people)
but the things we do may become like barriers that will not allow his love to reach us.
the development of spiritual qualities is entirely dependent on both the LOVE OF GOD and the FEAR of GOD.
...................
here is two passages I chose to clarify our underestimating of these to essential forces of our spiritual lives.
"For love of God and spiritual attraction do cleanse and purify the human heart and dress and adorn it with the spotless garment of holiness; and once the heart is entirely attached to the Lord, and bound over to the Blessed Perfection, then will the grace of God be revealed.
This love is not of the body but completely of the soul. And those souls whose inner being is lit by the love of God are even as spreading rays of light, and they shine out like stars of holiness in a pure and crystalline sky. For true love, real love, is the love for God, and this is sanctified beyond the notions and imaginings of men."
and I do follow his laws not out of fear of punishment, I do because he said "" Observe my commandments, for the love of my beauty""
His laws are"... the LAMPS of my loving providence among people and the KEYS of my mercy for my creatures."
Thank you again for reading my comment and I hope I could answer your questions.
Peace & Love & Unity
Regards,
Mona
Jamshid & Lost Identity
by Mona 19 (not verified) on Tue Jan 29, 2008 06:54 AM CSTThank you both and appreciates your HONEST comments and using KIND words to agree/disagree with me.
no matter what your belief is,we're all part of HUMAN FAMILY, and as individual being I respect you and your ideas.
My religion taught me ""... let your heart burn with loving kindness for all who may cross your path...when a thought of war comes , oppose it by a stronger thought of PEACE.A thought of hatred must be destroyed by a more powerful thought of LOVE.""
LOVE & UNITY
Regards,
Mona
Re: Mona and how intelligece can help us
by LostIdentity (not verified) on Tue Jan 29, 2008 01:39 AM CSTAre you really denying the effect of fear factor in human life? It does not mean that if we do not like something that is bad or does not have to exist. If we had no "FEAR" in life, we would not even survive a day. All of of body immune system is based on "FEAR". Do you really want to remove or deny "FEAR" from human life. Please get real; For one, The reason I like Islam is thefact that it is a very realistic method of life. It gives me what I like and it gives me what I do not like. but I knwo it's all "GOOD" for me.
You Say:
"I have my own suspicion that there is an order and an intelligence in this nature, but due to the inadequacy of my intelligence cannot decide what to make of this suspicion. I have enough intelligence to recognize the God of Mohammad does not exist and that his primitive logic is not superior to mine."
The issue is we can not use the same tools we use to gather info and process them in material world in dealing with beyond matter phenamenon.
Do you know what made Rumui or Bayazid Bastami dacing and joyous?
Chasme del baz kon ke jan bini;
Anche nadidanist an bini;
Here is something I wrote to another poster in another thread:
Self-centered personality (Self infatuation, Kish e shakhsiyat) is direct result of knowledge being cover to the eye of one's mind and heart. It's a known human catastrophe in todays age causing so many psychological issues with detrimental effects in modern age.
Let me put this in a simple form:
Consider someone making vinegar out of grapes but to his surprise, he ends up having liquor at the end. What went wrong? DO not underestimate the processing power of human mind. The input in both cases are genuine grapes (knowledge) but the end products are so very different. Our mind is aComplex processing machine. The end result is determined by individual's Transfer Function of his/her brain. You feed in the same very data/information to both brains and expectedly, you get two very different outcome (understanding). Some people are Encyclopedia of General Schience. All they collect in their brain is Data/Information. The vital role of human intelligensia is to make something usefull out of this information.
You say
"I have reached this point in my life because I have dared to question the authority that told me I am to be afraid of it and not ask questions, or when I do to ask them with an open heart. "
The Authority left us free to "Question him", "Reject him" or "Love him". That is our choice.
"Fear of being away from him is the most painfull fear one can ever have", Abu-Said Abalkheir.
How can one fear him with all the abundance of compassion and Grace he has on us? It's our deeds that we fear!
Peace;
Re: Jamshid
by LostIdentity (not verified) on Tue Jan 29, 2008 01:16 AM CSTYou say: "....I will never be able to know with certainty that he exists or not, or if exists, what kind of god he may be. I think this is beyone the ability of any human being."
I for one beleive in the necessity of guides and teachers in all aspects of my life. When I was kid, I used to look at my grandPa and GrandMa's strange habbits and say "Why they act this way" until I questioned myself "maybe theres's a reason that whenI get to their age I will understand?". It was kinda eye-opener. I think human history is rich and collection of all the works of geniouses in the course of history. So, There are things that I'm good at and there are things that I can learn from others. I trust to take the concepts from human history that are genuine and will be compatible with my understanding of the Truth. So, I think it helps to open our minds to ideas. It will help if we plant our root in e fertile land.
Peace;
Re: Mona 19
by LostIdentity (not verified) on Tue Jan 29, 2008 01:06 AM CSTBeautiful writing, Mona; I enjoyed reading your view on creation and God.
Peace;
Re: Jamshid likes to have tea with God
by LostIdentity (not verified) on Tue Jan 29, 2008 01:02 AM CSTJamshid,
I tell you politics ruins fun!!!!!
I never said, implied or bragged about knowing God or having close encounter with. I'm not after a God I prove his existence to someone else to believe in God. I'm not after a God that If I don't see God, I won't believe in God. I'm not after a God that Almighty's nature CAN BE UNDERSTOOD by material-based tools such as brain. So, I do believe when you say you have hard time grasping the idea of an entity called God. We need to find different ways to feel God's GRAVITY. we got to get in the field, then, God will impress Almighty's gravity on us:
Chashme del baz kon ke jn bini;
Anche nadidanist an bini;
What I hear (it make sense to me too) is that we won't get in the field unless God wants us to be in it. All we have to do is take the 1st step - Believe in such an Existence. This is true with anything we go after. All scientists 1st beleive in theory and then they go after it to prove it. would you go after something if you don't believe it exists? So, it becomes a matter of chicken&egg.
The closest analogy to getting into this field is "falling in love". It was said that, we are always looking for our lost portion of our existence. The loss started when the two chromosomes started separation during conception phase. We contain that Love of communion after that. Once we reach age of realization, we suddenly realize that separation, and suddenly fall in love. This is genuine love. The stories of Romeo/Juliette, Farhad/Shirin, Leili/Majnoon are thestory of mankind.
Take a look at your life and see if you ever had that feeling. Ponder upon it and look for the roots. Try to get into these situations, slow down the time and analyze it in your subconcious mind such that it does not disturn the process. Don't wait this happen if you're in rush in search of truth. All ofus had a moment what we call as "Gotts feeling". When you get one of those, try to see the origin of it. Try to ponder on the process.
All this said is my understanding of thoughts of some Noble Men/Women and I have the right to misunderstanding;
As I have said in the past,I see the God (Almighty's attributes) on the face of that man or woman from counryside with a beautifull, genuine, happy, joyfull and compassionate, gracefull smile.
Re: Mona 19
by LostIdentity (not verified) on Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:10 AM CSTDear Mona, I appreciated your comments and thoughtfull remarks; I sure attest for what you say - Mutual respet. Indeed, I value an honest enemy over a hypocrite friend. The Earth is big enough for all mankind to look for the truth.
Cheers;
Re: Mona
by jamshid on Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:38 PM CSTI read your response and I agree with everthing you said, specially the one saying that the creator must most likely be beyond his creation's ability to grasp him in full.
I think if there is a god, it must be so vastly beyond me, that no matter how much I analyze and use my investigation eye, as you put it, I will never be able to know with certainty that he exists or not, or if exists, what kind of god he may be. I think this is beyone the ability of any human being.
However, if this god chooses to "touch" you and make you see him in his own magical way, then more power to you! You must be lucky. but he has chosen not to touch my heart for the time being!
Either way, although I may not agree with it, but I do respect your belief which seems to be coming from the mind of a kind and decent human being.
Re.Jamshid
by Mona 19 (not verified) on Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:29 PM CSTDear Jamshid
I appreciate what you said and I agree with you about "eye would most likely be my brain and my ability to think"
and my "eye" cannot conclude with certainty that there is a god. Furthermore, it cannot conclude that if there is a god, what kind of god he may be.
and here is one of the principles I believe:
God is unknowable in his essence. this means that we should not make images of God in our mind, thinking of him, for example, as a man.
In general, that which has been created can not understand its creator. For instance, a table can not understand the nature of the carpenter who made it.
The carpenter's existence is totally incomprehensible to the objects he makes.
God creator of all things, and he has created human being.
The reason behind our creation is LOVE.
""O son of Man! I loved thy creation, hence I created thee. wherefore , do thou love me, that I may name thy name and fill thy soul with the spirit of life.""
You may not agree with what I said and that 's fine too, because here is another principle that I believe :)
Humanity can be likened to a vast garden in which grow side by side flowers of every form,color, and perfume.
the charm and beauty of the garden lie in this diversity. we should not allow the differences that exist among us- in our physical characteristics, our temperaments, our backgrounds, our thoughts, and opinions- to give rise to conflict and strife.
Because religion must be conducive to LOVE and UNITY among mankind; for if it be the cause of enmity and strife, the absence of religion is preferable.
Thank you so much for reading my long comment.
With Loving Greetings,
Mona
Mona
by Anonymous4now (not verified) on Mon Jan 28, 2008 09:46 PM CSTI just had this discussion about this with LostIdentity. Human intelligence is born of the intelligence in this nature and will never surpass it. If we are conceited enough to believe that we are the most supreme species that has ever been conscious, in all of this universe, then at best our intelligence can approach the intelligence in nature, asymptotically, and worst case we are some lowly creatures with no hope of ever appreciating what this order is. Therefore, we can never grasp the concept of the intelligence in this nature, fully. our modeling capabilities are inadequate. So any visualization or conjecture of what this intelligence is, is at best, a speculation and at worst, delusional. As Jamshid said, that intelligence is certainly not what Mohammad described. In fact, the God of Mohammad is so carnal and so primitive that it is an insult to human intelligence to believe this could be the supreme intelligence we have been looking for. The creed of Islam is to accept that there is no God but Allah and that Mohammad is his messenger. Just close your eyes for a minute and think the unthinkable. Think that you cannot accept the notion of this God and his messenger. Then read the word of this God and see what intelligence you find in it, and see if you can accept his word. His words are threats to prevent you from dismissing him. Without the fear of this God his words are meaningless. I have my own suspicion that there is an order and an intelligence in this nature, but due to the inadequacy of my intelligence cannot decide what to make of this suspicion. I have enough intelligence to recognize the God of Mohammad does not exist and that his primitive logic is not superior to mine.
Re: Mona
by jamshid on Mon Jan 28, 2008 07:05 PM CSTDear Mona,
If there is a god and he wanted to give me an eye for investigation, that eye would most likely be my brain and my ability to think. It would not be mohamad or ali or hossein or Koran.
And my "eye" cannot conclude with certainty that there is a god. Furthermore, it cannot conclude that if there is a god, what kind of god he may be, eg, to just describe one, he could very well be the kind of god who is oblivious to human causes, just as in the jungle, nature is oblivious to animals' struggles.
To ALL
by Mona 19 (not verified) on Mon Jan 28, 2008 05:46 PM CSTDO NOT AFRAID to respectfully challenge one another by asking questions, but refrain from harmful words -- focus on IDEAS.Remember, we're all human, and don't cast the first stone.
And remember this:
So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth
R.Jamshid
by Mona 19 (not verified) on Mon Jan 28, 2008 05:31 PM CSTThank you for sharing your belief with me and that's fine if you're not agree with me.
The goal is not to agree -- it is about hearing and exploring divergent perspectives.
(unity in diversity is what i believe)
simply we can share our believe/ideas/... with each other in open, respectful dialogs.
P.S.
Do you still looking for the answers for your questions?
(how do YOU know if god has given man the eye of investigation? How?)
Best wishes,
Mona :)
Re: Iranian-
by jamshid on Mon Jan 28, 2008 05:24 PM CSTIs this the best your religion can do? To call me "dumb" in response to my criticisms? Has your god made it possible, or permitted you to engage in a logical dialog? Is the basis of your "grand" religion so weak that it cannot withstand the insignificant criticism of the insignificant jamshid?
Does YOUR god gets angry at me for asking questions about Him? Would YOUR god punish me for not denying, but only doubting his existence, or his nature? Is this how he handles the likes of me? Or is he going to "seal" me in my ignorance for the rest of my life, according to Koran, and then after my death burn me in hell for eternity for having dared to question his prophet? And do so while you are having hourly fun with your 72 virgins?
What are you going to do about the direct command of Allah in Koran? I am referring to his direct "command" to kill all those who are "morted" like I am? I am a morted by all definitions. I was a practicing moslem that at some point decided to reject Islam. That makes me a "morted". YOUR god has issued and approved my execution in Koran. What are you going to do about it?
Is this the God that your worship? It sounds more like you are worshiping Satan. If there is a god, which I don't deny its possiblity, it is DEFINITELY not the god you are worshiping.
Dear Iranian-
by Anonymous4now (not verified) on Mon Jan 28, 2008 04:58 PM CSTDon't scorn me like your allah for being dumb. I promise I'll be a good student and willing to learn. Please let me know what it is I don't understand about the quotations below.
Jamshid dumb and Anonymous4now dumber
by Iranian- (not verified) on Mon Jan 28, 2008 04:50 PM CSTAnonymous4now, it is amazing to me that you actually try to read Quran but you never get it right!
I don't know if I should laugh at you or get mad at you. I think that I'll just laugh at you, because ... well I don't think that you'll understand the reason why either!
Why would the all merciful
by Anonymous4now (not verified) on Mon Jan 28, 2008 04:26 PM CSTWhy would the all merciful and companionate God make diseased hearts? If he has no control over his subjects and they deceive him, then is he that all knowing and that all powerful? Jamshid it looks like it was pre-ordained 1400 years ago; he hand picked a few for tea parties and left the rest of us out.
From the "Three Translations of the Koran"
002.006
Y: As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.
P: As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not.
S: Surely those who disbelieve, it being alike to them whether you warn them, or do not warn them, will not believe.
002.007
Y: Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).
P: Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.
S: Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing and there is a covering over their eyes, and there is a great punishment
for them.
002.008
Y: Of the people there are some who say: "We believe in Allah and the Last Day;" but they do not (really) believe.
P: And of mankind are some who say: We believe in Allah and the Last Day, when they believe not.
S: And there are some people who say: We believe in Allah and the last day; and they are not at all believers.
002.009
Y: Fain would they deceive Allah and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves, and realise (it) not!
P: They think to beguile Allah and those who believe, and they beguile none save themselves; but they perceive not.
S: They desire to deceive Allah and those who believe, and they deceive only themselves and they do not perceive.
002.010
Y: In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease: And grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false (to
themselves).
P: In their hearts is a disease, and Allah increaseth their disease. A
painful doom is theirs because they lie.
S: There is a disease in their hearts, so Allah added to their disease
and they shall have a painful chastisement because they lied.
002.011
Y: When it is said to them: "Make not mischief on the earth," they say:
"Why, we only Want to make peace!"
P: And when it is said unto them: Make not mischief in the earth, they
say: We are peacemakers only.
S: And when it is said to them, Do not make mischief in the land, they
say: We are but peace-makers.
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