ELECTIONS

Since I had promised to answer who to vote for:

//peyvast.blog.com/5050034/

Dear "eroonman",

Not voting and casting an empty vote are not the same. Not voting means not participating, casting an empty vote means showing the protest. This is also a great option. Go and draw a smiley. Great. But go and vote.

Optimistically Naive but Ill Informed

Your assumption that Iran's election is fair and impartial is way incorrect Dude. According to LAW, the Government officials hold the election, the Government officials collect the ballots, the Government officials count them, and VOILA! the Government officials declare the result.

If this still sounds like there is one hair of fairness in the Iranian Presidential electoral process (or any other Iranian election for that matter!), you need to seriously consider cutting back on your Koolaid consumption.

The ONLY option available to voice safe protest is to NOT vote. You trying to sell us on electing the least worst candidate picked for us by the Guardian Council is utterly retarded. Almost complicit, if I thought you were well informed. Clearly you need to read Iran's Constitution. Fully!

But the BETTER WAY, or I should say the more sheytoon Iroony way to protest this sham, is to in fact GO to the polls, and CAST AN EMPTY VOTE. In this way, you still get the stamp on your passport or ID card that you voted (Did I forget to mention that?), so the Government can't identify/arrest you as an objecter.

At least then the Government officials will have to deal with the moral dilemma of pretending to count so many blank votes, and the truth might actually slip out this time. That is, assuming they even count the votes in the first place. I certainly wouldn't.

You Can't Always Get What You Want

well said!

totally agree with you David. there is nothing to gain from abstention especially for those opposed to ahmadinejad.

Peace!

Dear "Farah Rusta",

It´s a pity that you didn´t answer my question, which benefit you´d see for Iran when Iranians boycott the elections and what your solution would be.

History taught me this lesson: Evil only prevails when the good stay silent.

Mr ET & MINUeum71

I am concluding my debate, and leave the last words to you, and look forward to Mr ET's next eletioneering blog.

MINeum71,

Clearly you are happy to go along with this regime as long as there are "liberal forces" in charge of the country. At least you are one step ahead of Mr ET as you know who your "liberal" candidate is. Good Luck to you! We know how the last "liberal" - Khatami - peformed. I am sure you have reasons to believe that this time round you liberal candidate, Mr Mousavi I gather, is going to do better!

Mr ET,

I see you are doing the same thing that you are accusing me of:

"You say not vote (and let Ahmadinejad win), I sayvote against him !"

Now, who is putting words in whose mouth? The bottom line is:

You are happy to prolong the life of this regime by being a pawn in their election army, hence you say VOTE, whereas, I am unhappy with this regime and want to shorten its life, hence I say stay actively away from this election and DO NOT VOTE.

Pistachios, whether liked or disliked, do not change the outcome of this elections but votes or no-votes do.

Until your next blog,

FR

Ms Rusta

I have written pages of comments and an article and have addressed EVERYTHING that you repeated many times. As I said your issue is that you do not read.

Rafsanjani has been saying vote for 30 years just as you have said don't. nothing new. , I didnt say just vote and for the 3rd time I ask please do not put words in my mouth.

I said vote for most moderate with chance of winning. He says just vote , anyone and Ahmadinejad included. 

Secondly so what even if he happen to say what I said . He likes Pistachio, so do I? Whats wrong with Pistachio?

I am studying the candidates and watching the political atmosphere. what part you did not understand? have you heard of undecided even in U S ?

You say not vote (and let Ahmadinejad win), I sayvote against him !

Thats is the bottom line.

Dear "Farah Rusta",

Please, please, don´t take it personally, but not voting is the silliest thing one can do. When you say, a boycott disunits the nation, what is then the benefit for the society and the people? This typically Iranian Ghar Kardan and Laj-bazee Kardan is such a bad habit, really typically Iranian, and one of the worst things one can do; this reminds me of my primary school when 8y children are sucked. But grown up people? I´m really full of respect for your effort to this community, but this non-activity is a nonsence solution.

There is no guarantee that voting can help the people immediately, but no-voting guarantees the same bullshit for the next four years.

Besides, there is one thing you should be criticised for: 4 years ago many Iranians didn´t vote using exactly the same arguments, and as we know, things became worse. Same game again?

You mentioned the people in the late Shah era. You are doing the same mistake. 35 years ago Iranians wanted more, the perfect country (or something like that) should be served up on a plate. Now? Who do you want to serve us a democratic Iran on a plate?

Change with Ghar Kardan and Laj-bazee Kardan?

MINeum71

Sir,

You are much more straightforward in your answers than Mr ET. At least you say Mousavi is a your favorite candidate and never mind that he was around at the time of massacres of 1980's but as long he "says" he is a "reformist", you are happy with it. I am afraid, I beg to differ but |I am much clearer with your stance than that of David ET. 

Mr ET's mind set is the same as the mind set of his previous generation thrity years ago who said: Let's get rid of the Shah and anything that comes after will be better!  

As for my solution, I belive a boycott of the election will not change the outcome but will disunite the nation form its ruling system. Is this not what all the "dissidents", have been saying all along that: Iranians and their regime are not one and the same? 

Well here is another opportunity to prove they mean what they say.

FR

Dear "Farah Rusta",

Ok, I got your point, nothing new, but anyway. What is your solution?

Which part do you disagree with?

Mr ET

You are being evasive again. Instead of being explicit about the issues you advocate, you hide behind a wall of waffle. 

1. Am I right in reading from your answers to "hooshie" that you have no idea, as yet, who you want to vote for?

2. You suggest that people should vote for any reformist candidate. Can any final round candidate be there without endorsement from Khamanei? Even President Obama has accepted that the final decision maker is Khamanei. So are you saying that any thing substantial can take place without Khamenei's approval?

3. Where is the difference between yours and Rafsenjani's call when you both say get out and vote?I am sure you have dfferent agendas but you are both saying the same thing. Aren't you.

4. Why do we have to trust this election system? Or are you suggesting to vote regardless of whether the system can be trusted?

 Correct me on any of the above points if my reading is wrong. So far, you have not offered a single rational argument to reassure your readers that why they should trust this election system and its results?

Do you have undisclosed knowledge that we don't have? Please be precise and non-evasive

FR

suggestions!

Ms. Rusta I suggest
1- Stop saying (changing it to your own version and then answering yourself! ) what others are saying and instead just give your OWN point of views and reasons behind it.
( You were making some progress with your prior comment but again fell back in to the same old habit in your last comment)
2- Try to read and listen to what people are saying without a cloud of prejudgment that seem to deviate your understanding . In short first HEAR the person before yourself.)
It takes some practice but it helps much long run in many aspects of life.
best

So voting for the sake of voting? Sounds familiar ...

Mr ET

You are saying precisely the same thing as Rafsenjani is saying: just vote, regardless of whom you vote! What if one finds no one to match their reformist ideals? As you have said y ou have no idea who you want to vote for but in the next two months you are going to make up your mind? Are you seriously suggesting that people should wait and see who says what and just trust their words.

Aren't you perhaps a lttle too optimistic, to say the least? 

FR

Hooshie

In IR's presidential s-election still there are some unknowns and some discussions among moderates and few candidates on both sides may still appear and it is not like US that there are 2 established parties with primaries and candidates and organizations way in advanced.

In Iran there are not much of organized parties except few on the far rights and one that Karoobi created and no primaries etc and much of election's direction is decided in the last month.

So I am watching what happens within a month or so before the elections and at that point I may have a clearer view of who would be the most likely candidates that moderates may vote for and then I decide at that point...and I will most probably write another blog about that.

For now I say: Plan to vote and vote for the most moderate candidate with more of a chance to win and what is most important is that your vote is counting AGAINST AHMADINJEAD WHO IS SUPREME LEADER'S FAVORITE CANDIDATE.

Dear "hooshie",

The question is not, who can be voted, the question is, how can people mark their territory. Yes, voting just for the sake of voting is a legal voice, why not? Also Mir-Hossein Moussaviis is a liberal candidate; it doesn´t matter to me what he did 30 years ago, important to me is his recent contribution.

And I never said that after these elections a secular country will be created. But this is still much much better than sitting at home and talking about the good old days.

Sorry gentlemen but you are still avoiding the question

David and MINuem71,

With respect, so far all you have said is old news. We all know about Khamenie and Ahmadinejad and what they stand for. We all know about Montazeri, Sistani and Boroujerdi and what they stand for. But:

• Are these people, apart from Ahmadinejad, presidential candidates in the Jume elections?
• If not, have they endorsed candodated to represent them?
• Are there candidates who support these figures?
• Are you saying people must vote just for the sake of voting or do you have a clear candidate(s) in mind to vote for?
• NAME THE CANDIDATE(S) OR POTENTIAL CANDIDATES WHO ARE GOING TO MEET YOUR CRITERIA

Perhaps you are waiting for a suprise candidate to show up? Do you have any potential surprise candidate in mind. Please tell us who you favor or support.

David,

During the last year's US election you were clearly and unambigiously supportiung Obama. VOTE OBAMA was your slogan. Why aren't you clear about your choice for Irans' Presidential elections. Or have I missed something, in that case please tell me where I missed it, or am I asking for too much.

 With respect,

 
H.

Dear "hooshie",

after the revolution there were many theocrats who didn´t agree Khomeini´s policy, there were many conflicts inside that stratum. Today Ali as-Sistani is living in Iraq, Hussein Ali Montazeri was placed under house arrest (and is still sitting at home although this condition ended officially in 2003), and Hossein Kazemeyni Boroujerdi is suffering from multiple health complications including heart problems in a prison somewhere in Iran.

Many of the clerics oppose the theocratic concept of rule by Islamic jurists and emphasise that there is no compulsion in religion or Islam that is not political. They also critisise the IRI and support the rights of the Baha'is saying that they are the citizens of this country, they have the right of
citizenship and to live in this country. Furthermore, they must benefit
from the Islamic compassion which is stressed in Quran and by the religious authorities.

These liberal forces can only work if they feel the support by the people. And the best support is to vote in June.

Hooshie

I have asnswered your question specificaly in my previous comments and in much detail if you knidly read so I don'yt be redundant . If after reviewing them , you still have any questions for me please let me know.

On another note. Delara execution was postponed:

//iranian.com/main/blog/sce-campaign/delaras-execution-postponed 

David and MINeum71

Thank you both for you for your helpful replys. It would be really helpful if you could be more precise with your answers. For instance, MINeum71 can you name some of these liberal forces that you think are capable of changing the system for the better?are you talking about people or organizations? Either way, can you be more open about who and what the voters are supposed to expect as their liberal representatives

David, can you please  be a little more precise as to how voting in an election setup by "a totalitarian regime" can lead to an improved siuation?Unless you say that the regime has relaxed certain rules and conditions (would be helpful to knw what rules and conditions).

Thanks.

Dear Hooshie

I do not know what Nazanin thinks about voting or not. In the very limited time that she has we only dicuss SCE and in this case saving Delara who can get executed anytime which in fact is the reason I came to post the news that she was not pardoned :

//iranian.com/main/blog/sce-campaign/urgent-delara-be-executed-no-pardon 

Nazanin's mission and focus is human rights.

SCE volunteer come from different political, ideological and religious backgrounds with a common goal of ending child executions worldewide.

As for me I have said the same thing before and in this blog and comments many time: Khamenei and Ahamdinejad are not represetatives of Iranian people and we should do everything we can to reduce or get rid of their power. In my view at this historical moment voting against them is an action in that direction. 

Until tomorrow 

Dear "hooshie".

No, no and no. It is true than Ali Khamenei was never elected, but there are also liberal forces ruling inside the IRI. Liberal votes make them stronger in this system, and this can provide a step-by-step solution towards a secular society.

What is Nazanin saying about voting in June election?

Dear David,

I am a late participant in this blog but as I just saw your comment on Nazanin Afshin Jam's opening the Geneva conference on Human Rights and given her words that:

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Supreme Leader Ali Khameini
"do not represent the people of Iran," Afshin-Jam said, "but represent
a regime of intolerance and the most brutal human rights violations one
could imagine."

I wondered if she is, like yourself, an advocate of voting in the June elections? My question is this: if you or Nazanin believe in the statement quoted here then as long as there is an unelected Supreme Leader as the final arbiter of what is right and what is wrong, then is there is still any point in electing their selected representative for the presidency? After all, if the regime is not a represntative regime, then election is meaningless, is it not?

Nazanin just opened the Geneva Summit for Human Rights

On the wires:

"Opening the conference, Nazanin Afshin-Jam, an Iranian-born human rights activist and co-founder of Stop Child Executions, issued a broadside against the Islamic Republic and its president, who is scheduled to address the U.N. conference on Monday.

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Supreme Leader Ali Khameini "do not represent the people of Iran," Afshin-Jam said, "but represent a regime of intolerance and the most brutal human rights violations one could imagine."

The Struggle Continues

But today Let's save Delara

Cross roads...............

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rZbvi6Tj6E

 //www.youtube.com/watch?v=fe1rZ4-_XGA

 //www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4bBff9aBRw

 //www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fNYEQYNjtg

That day is already here. It

That day is already here. It would take a very imbecile individual, even among the most trusted members of the system, to not know what the heck is going on and how people feel about them. it is so obvious, even the media can no longer ignore it, particulary the State TV.

Thank you Farah, I rest my case !

 I was saying all along in so many comments here that this legitimacy concept has nothing to do with Iranians and the rest of the world as the Iranians have already after 30 years have made up their mind about the legitimacy of this regime one way or another and in most of the world also Islamic Regime does not have much of legitimacy and those who somewhat support it for religious or financial supports do not have much of an effect in Iran anyway.

All along I said this is simply a perception, a concept, a presumption in MIND of few and when Farah looks inside herself in honesty how does she answer? : "legitimacy in the eye of your own conscience."

and indeed in her mind if she votes she considers herself a fraud and of course she consider millions who vote also a fraud when she judges herself that way too.

But then Farah does not have to buy meat and rice in the markets of Isfahan at astronomical prices with a nominal income to feed her family, she does not have to deal with police when her hair comes out and she does not have to worry about blogging here in the freedom of the west.

Indeed all that remains for her is not the reality of what is happening in the streets of Iran but simply a mental issue of conscience.

I give you an example : A. Khoramshahi is attorney for Delara Darabi and Roxana Saberi, both girls facing harshest sentences. He deals with regime's human rights violation face on. But at the same time he stands in front of Islamic Judges and writes letter to Hazrat Ayatollah Shahrudi (His Excellency Ayatollah Shahrudi) to defend his clients....

You see he is compromising and knows the system is flawed but he also knows if he only lives in the black and white mental world of this conscious , the two girls may not survive.

Is he a fraud ? I leave that decision to you.

The vote in Iran is no different than the struggle that average Iranians, attorneys such as Ebadi, Khoramshahi, Mostafaei, Sadr and other human rights activists who LIVE in Iran face.

But of course some of us 10,000's of kilometers away , live in our glasshouses above the clouds with our clear conscious looking at the dust of the battle on the grounds of the Iran colored with pain and blood and are waiting for the day that the dust settles and if things look as we dreamed it to be, then we step in there with our clear conscious claiming victory. 

Thank you for the honesty Farah. Meanwhile I prefer to stay with the dusty and stained but in the real world and leave the rest for the VIP.

No we have no guarantee how many will vote, but we know the call for voting is much stronger than boycott, if any in Iran and thats another reality. We the millions of fraudulent Iranian voters with no conscious

Now if you don't mind I have few mouths to feed, kids to put through college in todays fragile  economy while trying to save some young lives in Iran...and in between should get some sleep too ...the tainted me

until tomorrow 

btw, Roxanne Saberi was

btw, Roxanne Saberi was convicted 8 years in prison:

//www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/18/lawyer-ir...

KouroushS: Touché

You're right in that I was stretching; but too thin I must admit...lol

By when the truth is revealed, I meant when the regime is gone and there are documents and verifiable and undeniable evidence that even a Basiji cannot deny. At any rate, as I said before, David has lost its moral compass. After all, when we meet our creator, he will not care whether we were patriotic, muslim, IRI supporter, or IRI foe. He is going to judge us our individual actions regardless of political and religious views.

Compromise and Survive - but at what cost?

May I first thank Rok Goo for his/her encouraging words.

Mr ET,

There is an obvious and fundamental misunderstanding between you and those who oppose your views, myself included.  Although you ask questions from your opposers, and they answer you, you refrain from giving a direct answer to them. But, in between all the evasive replys that you have given, a clear pattern is emerging: making compromises under the ruling system in the vague hope that we may exctract a few advantage points in the process. But the downside of such compromise making, like paticipating the elections that are not free nor fair, is that we openly accept the legitimiacy of the ruling system - to my knowledge there is no option to "vote under protest". Then you ask: Legitimacy in the eyes of whom? World? Iranians? whom?

The answer is, first and foremost, legitimacy in the eye of your own conscience. If you conscienciously agree that this regime is iligitemate and has no democratic basis to exist and yet you go ahead and vote in their elections, then I am afaraid I cannot find a better word than fradulance to describe your action. You are defrauding your own conscience. But, if you think that this ruling system is legitimate, then we have nothing to discuss any more.

Then you ask if I  realistically think a massive boycott is coming forth. I can't understand what the significance of this question is but my answer to your question is: No. If I were so sure that there is a massive boycott on the cards I wouldn't bother even entering this debate. By the same token you cannot be sure if a massive turn-out is on the cards, otherwise you wouldn't have been encouraging the debaters of this blog to vote!

Finally, be rest assured that you are not shattering anybody's world more than you are trying to put the pieces of your own world together. As I wrote earlier, the effect of your blog on this election is next to nothing.

I do however, value your humanitarian work and wish you well in that regard.

FR

Claiming voting in the elections matters...

...can only be regarded as a cruel joke or a blatant attempt to pretend Iran under the rule of the Islamic Republic is a democracy.

THERE IS NO DEMOCRACY IN IRAN UNDER THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC.

There is no genuine opposition that is allowed to campaign freely and take part in elections in Iran. There is no candidate that is not vetted and hand-picked by a bunch of reactionary and unelected Mullahs. There is no president that is not subservient to the ultimate power and thoroughly undemocratic position of the Leader of the Revolution.

So called voting in Iran gets either one hand-picked IRI candidate to the sham post of the president or it gets another-picked IRI candidate to that position, In short, there is NO democracy in Iran. The whole thing is a sham and it insults the intelligence to suggest otherwise.